LBRP southern hemisphere

Q&A and discussion on ceremonial magick

Moderator: Moderators - Public

LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Metzareph » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:16 pm

93!
A friend of mine that lives in Argentina asked me a question that has gotten me thinking. When in the south hemisphere should one change the clockwise sequence of east-south-west-north for a counterclockwise? This is since south is the highest place for the sun and therefore attributed to fire, but in the southern hemisphere, the highest point for the sun should be north, therefore changing the elemental attributions.
I told him that I would change them to follow the path of the sun on the southern hemisphere, but it would then change the archangelic placements. Also, if one follows this logic, the lesser ritual of the hexagram is also affected to name a few rituals that follow the path of the sun.
Thoughts?
93s
"There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt."
User avatar
Metzareph
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:13 am
Location: New York

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby ThelemicMage » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:40 pm

One reason we invoke or banish Fire in the South, is because Set, or Satan, is the Sun in the South. (Search the Equinoxes.) South is the elemental direction for Fire, and a crust of Earth concealed the core of Flame. (Liber Trigrammaton)This is the "core" reason that we banish Fire with Adonai in the South.

If one makes a map of the Lesser, Lesser, then Greater, Greater rituals of the Pentagram and then Hexagram, one will see the patterns of the flow of energy originating and emitting from due East.

If one searches for these references, then read the entire Libers they are contained in, keeping 777 or 776 1/2 around for references, this might become much more clear.


Love is the Law
Frankie
“The mushroom said to me once, ‘Nature loves courage. Nature loves courage,’ and I said, ‘What’s the payoff on that?’ And it said, ‘It shows you it loves courage because it removes obstacles.’ You make a commitment, and nature will respond to that commitment by removing impossible obstacles. Dream the impossible dream, and the world will not grind you under, it will lift you up.” -Terrence McKenna

Love is the Law,

Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!!

Love under Will
User avatar
ThelemicMage
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
 
Posts: 730
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:18 pm

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Metzareph » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:46 pm

Thank you ThelemicMage... however, it was not exactly what I asked. I know why the south is fire and such attributions. My point is that in the southern hemisphere the path of the sun seems counterclockwise. Therefore over there, the point where the sun is highest would be the north and that would be the natural placement for fire.
Or so it seems...
"There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt."
User avatar
Metzareph
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:13 am
Location: New York

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:34 pm

Metzareph wrote:When in the south hemisphere should one change the clockwise sequence of east-south-west-north for a counterclockwise? This is since south is the highest place for the sun and therefore attributed to fire, but in the southern hemisphere, the highest point for the sun should be north, therefore changing the elemental attributions.

I spent some time actively investigating this when I was in Australia and New Zealand years back, and accumulated a lot of nortes. It's complicated. It's especially complicated when you draw the ritual back into a GD context. I've thought of writing an article on this, but it actually would require rebuilding a series of nested formulae from the ground up, so I decided I'd wait until such time as we had enough T.'.O.'.T.'. members south of the equator that the possibility of a Temple was looming.

Here are a few basics, though:

1. Yes, the cycle of motion should be east, north, etc.
2. The sequence of the Divine Names don't change, because they are not attached to the quarters - they represent a sequence that has specific power in its own right.
3. No, the directions of the elements don't change. These have nothing to do with the Names used, and they seem primarily locked into the hemisphere's of the brain. South of the equator, you still have rational cognitive functions in the forebrain, subconscious and sleep-related functions in the hindbrain, abstract functions in your right hemisphere, and concrete functions in left hemisphere.
4. Some of these factors would have to change in the context of a G.D. type temple. The lesser ritual of the pentagram is multi-layered and synthesizes many separate things, and these reach out into the larger temple / symbolic framework of which it's a part; but, outside of that context, the above applies.

The attribution of the south to Fire only exists in the LRP in terms of the placement of Mikhael, and this is actually more fundamentally wired into one's neurology.

I told him that I would change them to follow the path of the sun on the southern hemisphere, but it would then change the archangelic placements.

As indicated above, I believe it should not. (I'll add, this was the hardest to solve and last-solved piece of thzzle, but I rest confident in my resolution FWIW.)

Also, if one follows this logic, the lesser ritual of the hexagram is also affected to name a few rituals that follow the path of the sun.

The Lesser Ritual of the Hexagram (unless it's performed inside the Vault of the Adepts) has the same elemental attributions as the Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram. Same logic, therefore. BTW, these attributions (Microcosmic, sub-Tiferic) are also a mapping of the letters of the name Adonai measured clockwise from the east, whereas the Macrocosmic scheme (within the Vault or equivalent) is the mapping of Y.H.V.H. counter-clockwise from the east.

One consequence of the above BTW - and the easiest to solve (and the first that I tackled, standing under the naked stars out on a hilltop in the mountains west of Sydney_ is that the Star Ruby goes clockwise (i.e., against the current of the Sun).
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in L.V.X.,
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com
"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!" - CCXX 3:42
User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Lost His Marbles
 
Posts: 9582
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:41 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Metzareph » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:27 pm

I suspected that was the case.
Thank you Jim.

It also got me thinking that this, in theory, would affect not only GD/thelemic working over there, but also the very traditional working of a Masonic Lodge.
"There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt."
User avatar
Metzareph
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:13 am
Location: New York

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Q789 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:33 am

Some years back the Auckland OTO wrote a book on the matter. Ever since I have been doing my LBR counter clockwise.
The god names are in the same order. Fire in the north because the sun is fire.

This does not effect the Thelemic temple as they are universal energies in contrast to planatary.
Q789
Gold Member
Gold Member
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Starry Soul » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:45 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:One consequence of the above BTW - and the easiest to solve (and the first that I tackled, standing under the naked stars out on a hilltop in the mountains west of Sydney_ is that the Star Ruby goes clockwise (i.e., against the current of the Sun).

Does the sequence of the names change?
Starry Soul
 

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:49 pm

No.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in L.V.X.,
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com
"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!" - CCXX 3:42
User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Lost His Marbles
 
Posts: 9582
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:41 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby ThelemicMage » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:57 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:I like cake and ice cream.

Does this mean that if one was _on_ the equator, one should do one version of the ritual in the morning, then change direction when it is performed again in the evening?
“The mushroom said to me once, ‘Nature loves courage. Nature loves courage,’ and I said, ‘What’s the payoff on that?’ And it said, ‘It shows you it loves courage because it removes obstacles.’ You make a commitment, and nature will respond to that commitment by removing impossible obstacles. Dream the impossible dream, and the world will not grind you under, it will lift you up.” -Terrence McKenna

Love is the Law,

Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!!

Love under Will
User avatar
ThelemicMage
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
 
Posts: 730
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:18 pm

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:40 pm

ThelemicMage wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:I like cake and ice cream.

Does this mean that if one was _on_ the equator, one should do one version of the ritual in the morning, then change direction when it is performed again in the evening?

No; but if one is anywhere between the Tropic of Capricorn and the Tropic of Cancer, one would perhaps do it differently at different times of the year, depending on the declination of the Sun.

For example, if one were in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 3N10, the Sun at noon is north of you at noon and south of you at midnight (declination greater than 3N10) from late March to mid-September. The rest of the year, it is south of you at noon and north of you at midnight.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in L.V.X.,
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com
"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!" - CCXX 3:42
User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Lost His Marbles
 
Posts: 9582
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:41 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Swamiji » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:32 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:No.


So to clarify, are you suggesting that if you do the Star Ruby in the southern hemisphere, you should start in the East with "Therion", then move south with "Hadit"?

If you were doing the hebrew LBRP, you would start in the east with IHVH, then go north with "AGLA"?

And with the Greater Pentagram Ritual? Would the active/passive pentagrams of spirit or the opening/closing portal signs remain unchanged as well, in your opinion? So you would begin in the east with the portal opening and end in the south with the portal opening?
Swamiji
Gold Member
Gold Member
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 8:39 pm

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:22 pm

I've been careful not to pin anything down too much, but leg me throw a couple of things back.

Why in the world go to the SOUTH with Hadit when that is not the direction of the blazing noon time Sun to which the Ad/At &c. god names refer? Would not one go to the south with Nuit?

And on the LRP, I've said many times that what matters is the SEQUENCE of the names, not their positions. Whatever else you do, those Names need to remain in the sequence YHVH, ADNI, AHYH, A.G.L.A.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in L.V.X.,
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com
"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!" - CCXX 3:42
User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Lost His Marbles
 
Posts: 9582
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:41 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby Swamiji » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:24 pm

I see. So the direction and the name positions are both changed.

That's a simple enough answer for the banishings; what happens in the greater pentagram rituals? Where would the Invoking fire pentagram go? In which two directions would the active spirit pentagrams be performed?
Swamiji
Gold Member
Gold Member
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 8:39 pm

Re: LBRP southern hemisphere

Postby ThelemicMage » Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:12 am

This is a complex question, Swamiji.

The supreme, or "greater" pentagram ritual may be performed many ways, depending on what you wish to do.

Jim and I had a rather thorough and interesting conversation on the pentagram here: http://heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10053&p=64986&hilit=pentagram+supreme#container

I believe you would take what Jim stated on that thread, and try to incorporate the rules he states here.

Of course it would still start with Air in the East. However one might go counterclockwise in the Southern Hemisphere.
“The mushroom said to me once, ‘Nature loves courage. Nature loves courage,’ and I said, ‘What’s the payoff on that?’ And it said, ‘It shows you it loves courage because it removes obstacles.’ You make a commitment, and nature will respond to that commitment by removing impossible obstacles. Dream the impossible dream, and the world will not grind you under, it will lift you up.” -Terrence McKenna

Love is the Law,

Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!!

Love under Will
User avatar
ThelemicMage
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
Ultimate Spark of the Intimate Fire
 
Posts: 730
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:18 pm


Return to Magick

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests