Tattwa Vision

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Tattwa Vision

Postby Luce » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:00 pm

I've checked the available tattwa topics, but haven't be able to find the help I need.

I know the GD claimed that tattwa vision is one of the fastest ways to develop clairvoyance. My clairvoyant (and visualization) skills are abhorrent. I can't seem to find any success by following the prescribed methods.

Does anyone have any further tips to the given methods? Specifically, my problem is that I can't really do anything with the afterimage. I see it when I close my eyes, but I can't make it grow to be a doorway, nor can I "enter" it. Eventually the after-image fades, and I just see blackness.

As a side question, many documents say to use the sign of the enterer or the rending of the veil to help get through the "door." I always assumed this was done in your head, but I read a passage in a random book yesterday that said you were supposed to physically stand up and physically do the sign of the enterer. Is this true? Do you physically make the sign, or just visualize it?

Also, the afterimage is, of course, the complement color. Is there a way to mentally "switch" the color? Basically, is it possible (or even helpful) to mentally will the afterimage to change from, say, a purple square to a yellow square? If so, how can I accomplish this?

Ideally, I would like a few ultra-basic exercises. I feel like the tattwa exercises, even though it seems quite basic, is still beyond my abilities, sadly. I feel like it has the most potential for me, as I really benefit from actually "seeing" the afterimage on closed eyelids, but I just don't know how to go past that stage. Does anyone know of any step-by-step basic techniques or hints to troubleshoot tattwa exercises? Even a book recommendation on the subject would be intensely helpful. I really want to build my visual skills from the ground up, and tattwas seem like the way to go, but I need a couple of simple steps to help me achieve it.

Thank you!
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:20 am

Luce wrote:Does anyone have any further tips to the given methods? Specifically, my problem is that I can't really do anything with the afterimage. I see it when I close my eyes, but I can't make it grow to be a doorway, nor can I "enter" it. Eventually the after-image fades, and I just see blackness.

It seems to me there are several things going on here, such as:

1. Too much literalness. You seem to be trying to continue working with the physical impression on the optic nerve, rather than using that as a bridge to an imaginative space.

2. Insufficient practice/skill in concentration.

3. You say you can't enter the doorway. Have you previously externalized from your physical body such that you're in the astral space where this occurs?

As a side question, many documents say to use the sign of the enterer or the rending of the veil to help get through the "door." I always assumed this was done in your head, but I read a passage in a random book yesterday that said you were supposed to physically stand up and physically do the sign of the enterer. Is this true? Do you physically make the sign, or just visualize it?

I was sitting on Regardie's porch in Studio City as a particular young snot when he made a strong point of telling me that, at this point, you rise up with your physical body and physically give the sign to penetrate before sitting back down for the rest of the working. This advice has served me well.

Also, the afterimage is, of course, the complement color. Is there a way to mentally "switch" the color?

Why?

Basically, is it possible (or even helpful) to mentally will the afterimage to change from, say, a purple square to a yellow square? If so, how can I accomplish this?[/quyote]
Why?

Ideally, I would like a few ultra-basic exercises. I feel like the tattwa exercises, even though it seems quite basic, is still beyond my abilities, sadly. I feel like it has the most potential for me, as I really benefit from actually "seeing" the afterimage on closed eyelids, but I just don't know how to go past that stage. Does anyone know of any step-by-step basic techniques or hints to troubleshoot tattwa exercises? Even a book recommendation on the subject would be intensely helpful. I really want to build my visual skills from the ground up, and tattwas seem like the way to go, but I need a couple of simple steps to help me achieve it.

We have a few extra specific techniques that we teach in Temple of Thelema at the Adept level. What I've mentioned abo e points you in the right direction, though. You can't really do this work IMO until you have considerable experience in general meditation and then the layering in color and other symbol into the meditations (e.g., as in meditating on the attributions of the various parts of the Tree of Life). - What little I've said here actually communicates a very great deal if you follow through on it.
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Luce » Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:19 am

Hi Jim,

Thank you for your super-quick reply.

I'm not sure why I thought I should reverse the afterimage. I guess I wanted to demonstrate control over the image, and thought it might help to make it the right color before I enter the door. I think I'm mistaken on that one though.

I trust you when you say that you've given me a lot to go off of... though I admit, I'm not quite sure what to do differently besides meditate more and not expect an optic vision. Perhaps that's enough? I hope meditation makes this easier, but it's hard because I can't seem to have any success with any visualization-based meditations. I can't for the life of me make sense of Crowley's suggestion of holding an object in your mind and prevent it from morphing. This "does not compute" for me; there's no issue of the object morphing because I don't think I'm actually seeing it. I can kind of "see" it like I can see a lemon right now whilst I type this.. but the object doesn't even seem real enough for morphing to be an issue.

I *know* this is possible though. When I was younger, I would see little vibrant "fruit loops" floating around my bedroom when all the lights were out... and I would see ghastly images on the backs of my eyelids whenever I would try to fall asleep (just as if I were watching TV -- the vividness was uncanny). More recently, I've woken up early in the morning and have been able to change the color of my mental "canvas." If I close my eyes right now, I just see blackness with a bit of texture. But sometimes when I just wake up, I can change that blackness to any color I wish just by thinking about it. So I know that I can do this, but I just can't do it during practice at all. Recently, I've been very sleep deprived; almost every morning I wake up with sleep paralysis and can see my room behind my closed eye lids. I don't mean to give you my life story here, just wanted to share my visualization "history." It's *very* sparse, but I *have* managed to do it at unpredictable times.

It'd be really helpful if I knew of some practical pointers for the tattwa exercise. Unless there's a better technique for foundational visualization. I'm assuming you can't share those techniques you said you teach at the College?

Maybe you would be able to help me with some specific questions (I have been experimenting with everything below, but as none of it yields any progress, it's difficult for me to know what "works" and what doesn't; therefore, I'm not sure what form of practice to pursue):

1. Is it best to sit up or lie down for tattwa vision?
2. Do you recommend the eastern tattwas, e.g., yellow square, or the western tattwas, e.g., the ones found in the GD Enochian Scrying Tarot?
3. Is there a simpler, more foundational, technique you'd recommend to a visualization newb (this is the Q I asked in the above paragraph)?
4. Do you recommend following general meditation found in the A.'.A.'. documents, or is there a specific meditation practice you think would assist me?
5. I have a black mirror, an obsidian mirror, and my eyelids. Which is easiest for someone who can't visualize to save his life?
6. Is there a reliable way that I can produce at least SOMETHING in terms of a successful visualization? In Q3, I'm referring to actually learning how to visualize. In this question, I'm wondering if there's a technique I can follow that might not train visualization per say, but is pretty reliable at producing a a visual experience so I can "get my feet wet." I guess I'm wondering if there's an experience I can partake of that might "open my third eye" or something of that nature (not sure if that's the right term in this particular context). Maybe something like using the colors to rise through the four worlds, or Liber HHH, or an evocation even? Something to kind of "kick my butt" so I can awaken this dead thing between the eyes of my big thick skull?

I've never managed to project myself astrally, no. I can "imagine" that I'm in various scenes, but the quality seems like that of when I read a fiction book and am building the scene in my mind as I read. It's nothing like a dream, let alone like something more. I've had a couple of accidental astral experiences when waking up or falling asleep, but nothing intentional during practice.

I hope that's not too many questions. I'm sorry if it is. Thank you for any help you are willing to provide. I definitely know my concentration is lacking, and I am taking your advice to heart. I don't want my many follow-up tattwa questions to indicate that I didn't listen to your original post.
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby sinistralkool » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:47 am

I'm also currently trying to improve my visualisation skills using Liber E. Different people have different approaches towards visualization, and it might be an idea to change the order you approach the tasks in section 5.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Represent ... stems_(NLP)

Perhaps your preferred representational system is more auditory than visual, for example. Section 8 asks you to imagine the sound of a waterfall, the smell of roses, the ticking of a watch etc. You may find one of these immediately easier, and once you have a feeling for the sort of mental knack involved, you might be better able to apply that to the representational system you are less fluent with, the visual.

What happens when you daydream? Think of the prettiest girl (or guy) you know giving you a blowjob. Is that easy to picture? Make the daydream as vivid as possible, and engage as many of your imaginary senses as possible. If you don't enjoy blowjobs, maybe try to recreate a scene from a film you like as vividly as possible. Which senses do you find it easy to recreate, which do you find more difficult? Once you have an idea, focus on the weaker aspects until they improve.

For example, I find it a lot easier to visualise the moving systems Crowley describes (pendulum swinging, a wheel revolving, etc) but am fairly terrible at holding the Tattwas still in my mind, but I'm practicing! Good luck.
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:00 pm

Luce wrote:I'm not sure why I thought I should reverse the afterimage. I guess I wanted to demonstrate control over the image, and thought it might help to make it the right color before I enter the door. I think I'm mistaken on that one though.

Exercising control over it would be a wonderful practice in Dharana, but not in astral vision. You need to surrender to the image and what flows, maintaining your center without engaging reason more than the bare amount needed - a self-conscious center needs to co-exist with you're slipping int oa waking submergence into subconsciousness. (Hope that makes sense.)

I hope meditation makes this easier

The skills acquired in meditation are the skills needed to rightly participate in astral vision. If you have those "muscles" developed, it makes this work easier. For example, in both cases you are suspending the active participation of the self-conscious, rational ego-center except that it is kept present, awake, witnessing; and you are opening to be more witnessing and aware of the contents of subconsciousness. Figuratively, you are stepping off dry land into what at first may look like a lake and, in time, turns out to be a bay which, in time, opens out through the rocks into the full ocean. But that last part can take years, so just concern yourself with the lake for now :)

it's hard because I can't seem to have any success with any visualization-based meditations.

Prepare yourself for meditation with the usual basics (systematic relaxation, assumption of a stable posture, rhythmic breathing, witnessing what is happening in your psyche and letting it pass, etc.). Then, when feeling settled, pick one of the Hebrew letters, witness that there is an egg of energy within which your entire body is encased, and mentally turn that egg the color of the Hebrew letter in the King Scale. That's all. Just that. Sit there for 15 minutes witnessing your breath and feeling whatever it feels like to sit in that space. Diary about thoughts that flow through, but don't concentrate on having thoughts.

When this is entirely easy (perhaps on the second day), visualize the Hebrew letter within the egg, hovering in front of you, in the complementary color, e.g., a Tav in amber light on the indigo field. Don't require it to do anything, just keep it there and, when it wanders or fades because your attention wanders or fades, just bring it back. Other than that, do the meditation the same way as described above.

Do perhaps three days per letter, and work your way up the tree. If you work six days a week (taking the same day off every week to create a rhythm), you will do two letters a week, or 11 weeks for the whole practice. After doing this for 11 weeks with no particular expectation of anything happening, draw one of the Tarot trumps at random, sit into the same meditation for a day, then, on the second day, still sitting there, feel yourself move into and through the field of the egg as if it is really just the surface of an inside-out universe. Experience whatever you experience. Be open for subconsciousness to raise ideas and images into your mind that weren't consciously chosen. Record and repeat.

For example. That's just a practice series I made up on the spot out of useful modular "tricks of the trade."

I can't for the life of me make sense of Crowley's suggestion of holding an object in your mind and prevent it from morphing.

Maybe I've misunderstood what you wanted to do. I guess maybe you really are doing Dharana practice, in which case ignore 100% of everything I have said in this entire thread. Because of your title, "Tattwa Vision," I thought you were talking about Tattwa Vision (early training astral travel), but what you just described is Crowley's instruction for early stage Dharana. These are almost diametrically opposite things of almost no relationship to each other - They are about as related as using a car to get somewhere vs. using a car, kept polished and shiny and sitting at the curb, to impress a girl (i.e., to "get somewhere" with her!).

This "does not compute" for me; there's no issue of the object morphing because I don't think I'm actually seeing it.

Most people find that when they imagine a triangle, it changes shape, spins, turns upside down, switches color, disappears, comes back as a bug, splits into two, starts conversations with itself, goes back to the original triangle but with a smiley face, and so on. The concentration practice is: Endeavor to hold it as originally imagined, restore it when it varies from that, and keep note of how often you have to restore it.

I can kind of "see" it like I can see a lemon right now whilst I type this.. but the object doesn't even seem real enough for morphing to be an issue.

Again, I think you are trying to leave it as a physical sight rather than using the optical reflex to create something that you then maintain in imagination. This is not a physical exercise, it is a mind exercise.

The Dharana exercise is all about learning to control your mind: To place your attention where you want it, when you want it, and to place content in it that you choose and retain it there, etc.

1. Is it best to sit up or lie down for tattwa vision?

See, there we go with the confusion again. What you described above was Crowley's exercise in concentration, and quite specifically NOT "Tattwa vision." Which do you mean? There really isn't any use continuing until we are clear whether you are talking about ice cream or donuts.

For either, though, I'm inclined to say sitting up, though this may vary with the person. It is important to have a position where you are less likely to fall asleep, so the Corpse Position is a serious disadvantage for most people most of the time.

2. Do you recommend the eastern tattwas, e.g., yellow square, or the western tattwas, e.g., the ones found in the GD Enochian Scrying Tarot?

There should be no difference at all. (They are inherently Eastern, but have been adopted in the West.) They are: a yellow square, a silver crescent, a red triangle, a blue circle, and a black or indigo oval "("egg"). I've never seen the "GD Enochian Scrying Tarot" (I believe the Golden Dawn, which ceased to exist in 1900, never had any such thing, so I suppose someone is marketing under their name), so I don't know what they are showing.

Sometimes these are composited for composite or sub-Tattwas, e.g., a small blue circle within a red triangle for Air-of-Fire.

3. Is there a simpler, more foundational, technique you'd recommend to a visualization newb (this is the Q I asked in the above paragraph)?

For what specific purpose?

4. Do you recommend following general meditation found in the A.'.A.'. documents, or is there a specific meditation practice you think would assist me?

Those meditations are fine. One could compose other regiments, but there's certainly nothing wrong with those. (You are now convincing me that you meant Tattwa-based Dharana practices and not Tattwa Vision, so this thread is really back-and-forth mixed up.)

5. I have a black mirror, an obsidian mirror, and my eyelids. Which is easiest for someone who can't visualize to save his life?

Some people have had luck with a black mirror. I don't see why it should be any different than looking behind your own eyelids, but if it works for you, hey, do it.

6. Is there a reliable way that I can produce at least SOMETHING in terms of a successful visualization?

Masturbate, fantasizing whatever turns you on. Most guys do this just fine, and it is highly motivating. If you can do that kind of fantasy, then you are accomplishing precisely what you are asking to learn how to do.

I guess I'm wondering if there's an experience I can partake of that might "open my third eye" or something of that nature (not sure if that's the right term in this particular context).

Opening the Third Eye has nothing to do with either of these practices.

[quote]Maybe something like using the colors to rise through the four worlds, or Liber HHH, or an evocation even? Something to kind of "kick my butt" so I can awaken this dead thing between the eyes of my big thick skull?[quote]
Practices given above - the one on masturbation first, the one with the colored eggs second - are both likely to be successful unless something in you is really committed not to have this work.
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Luce » Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:57 pm

Thanks Jim, I particularly like your exercise suggestion involving the egg of light. Every time I read Crowley talk about these eggs of light I was get a little bit giddy. There just seems to be a sort of whimsical eternality to them.

One question about that: when I come to the tarot (a few months down the road), do I visualize the tarot scene hanging in front of me as I did the hebrew letter?
Oh wait, another question. Do I visualize the egg of light surrounding me in 3rd person? Or do I try to imagine that the blackness I'm seeing behind my closed eyelids is, say, indigo, and be in the 1st person perspective?

Sorry for the confusion! This may seem odd, but I actually don't have dharana and tattwa vision conflated at all in my mind. I know they are completely separate activities. I am asking about tattwa vision, but was referencing Crowley's discussion on dharana to show that I just feel blind. I can't see anything in either case, even if one process is intensely active and the other is intensely receptive. I just wanted to say one thing about dharana based on what you said: your advice also "does not compute" with me. I "get" what Crowley means about the object changing, but I just don't understand it when I sit down to practice. If by "visualization" we mean the same thing a 14-year-old boy does when he jerks off and thinks of Miley Cyrus (I don't know what the whippersnappers are fappin' to these days, sorry), then I don't understand how the shape morphs. I feel like when I think of a yellow rectangle, it's barely there at all... it's almost as if I'm thinking of the concept of a yellow rectangle... So morphing, and shrinking, and changing color, isn't an option. How can the mere memory or idea of something do that? It just kinda half sits there in my mind's eye, but I can barely see it.

I guess I brought up dharana because I thought Crowley was talking about really seeing a yellow rectangle, in the same way that one sees the after-image or a dream. I concede that a dream and an after-image are completely different, but they both feel like you're really looking at something. When I'm in a dream, I feel like I'm seeing with my eyes just the same as in real life (even if that's not the case). When I fantasize or read a fiction book, I don't get that.

I know you said that dharana and tattwa vision are completely different, and you used a car analogy. To keep with your analogy, what I mean to say is that I feel like I don't have a car! Whether being alert and active and trying to will myself to see a shape, or being passive and open and trying to see a vision, they both involve a car... and I ain't got one!

But maybe I do, if we are talking about masturbation fodder. I've been a few months celibate now for other reasons, but back in my young(er) and foolish(er) days, I definitely experienced vivid visualizations. I guess I never thought magick was like that. That seems like bullshit visualization to me. When I was young, I would REALLY SEE things on the backs of my eyelids every night. When I wake up in the morning on certain days and can change the color of my canvas, I am actually changing the colors. These things are like I'm watching TV! Fantasies, memories, and reading fiction don't feel like I'm watching TV. It's this half-blurry-not-sure-if-it's-real thing in the back of my head. But in rare moments when I'm in the right state of mind, I see things with my eyes closed. I know my optic nerve isn't activated, but gosh darn they are as real as if they were right in front of me. They look JUST as vivid as after-images, even if they are not caused by optics.

So what gives? If visualization is just imagination (and it seems to be), then what do I call my experiences I've had scattered throughout my life where I am seeing behind closed eyes as if I'm watching a movie? They feel completely unlike what you've described as visualization. Is it that the former is just the mastery of the latter? That maybe what I saw as a kid is just masturbation-vision version 10.0? Are they two different phenomena or does masturbation vision eventually become so real that it feels like you're watching TV on your eye-lids?

Not gonna lie, you really threw me for a loop when you said opening your third-eye had nothing to do with these two. Maybe that's what I'm looking for? Is that the one where you are actually seeing and not imagining that you are seeing (not to denigrate the latter)? Isn't opening your third-eye causing visual experiences? I think this might be what I'm looking for, but can you confirm this? If this is what I had when I was younger, that's what I'm trying to develop now. If that's what opening your third-eye is, what exercise is best for that?

On a final note, by Western Tattwa I mean when the Tattwa symbols follow the Western shapes (instead of water being a crescent, it's a right-side-up blue triangle, just like in GD symbolism). This is probably an invalid form of tattwa if you've never heard of it. The Enochian scrying deck was made by the Ciceros. I gave it credence because those two seem quite prominent in GD history, at least recent history.

http://www.amazon.ca/Golden-Dawn-Enochi ... 0738702013

Thanks again for your help, Jim. I hope I've articulated a bit clearer this time as to what I'm hoping to accomplish!
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:10 pm

Luce wrote:One question about that: when I come to the tarot (a few months down the road), do I visualize the tarot scene hanging in front of me as I did the hebrew letter?

Not the tarot image, just the other.

Do I visualize the egg of light surrounding me in 3rd person? Or do I try to imagine that the blackness I'm seeing behind my closed eyelids is, say, indigo, and be in the 1st person perspective?

Experience yourself, with all of your senses, as being in the midst of this egg, and see it (with your eyes open or closed).

You are true occult geek if you are excited about this egg practice more than you're excited about masturbation. :twisted:

Sorry for the confusion! This may seem odd, but I actually don't have dharana and tattwa vision conflated at all in my mind. I know they are completely separate activities.

That's confusing because you speak of aspects of one interchangeably with the other.

I am asking about tattwa vision, but was referencing Crowley's discussion on dharana to show that I just feel blind.

See, that's the problem - the Dharana discussion has little to nothing to do with Tattwa vision.

I just wanted to say one thing about dharana based on what you said: your advice also "does not compute" with me. I "get" what Crowley means about the object changing, but I just don't understand it when I sit down to practice. If by "visualization" we mean the same thing a 14-year-old boy does when he jerks off and thinks of Miley Cyrus (I don't know what the whippersnappers are fappin' to these days, sorry), then I don't understand how the shape morphs.

I would be surprised if anyone who has done half an hour of visualizing a colored geometric hasn't seen dozens of examples of the shape morphing. If you haven't, then you are one of the greatest yogis in the history of the world.

I feel like when I think of a yellow rectangle, it's barely there at all... it's almost as if I'm thinking of the concept of a yellow rectangle

And yet you have no trouble imagining Miley in exactly the same way? What if Miley had a yellow square superposed over her pudenda?

I guess I brought up dharana because I thought Crowley was talking about really seeing a yellow rectangle, in the same way that one sees the after-image or a dream.

Dream, yes, exactly. But the after-image is there primarily to give you a starter image to transfer to imagination, while also taking advantage of attuning your psyche to the colors of the physical item and its complement.

When I'm in a dream, I feel like I'm seeing with my eyes just the same as in real life (even if that's not the case).

Got it. But, in fact, you aren't. You're seeing with your psyche, exactly the same faculty you need for the visualization exercises. The difference is, in a dream your self-conscious rational mind is out of the way. You have to get it out of the way while staying awake - that's where meditation practice comes into play.

I know you said that dharana and tattwa vision are completely different, and you used a car analogy. To keep with your analogy, what I mean to say is that I feel like I don't have a car! Whether being alert and active and trying to will myself to see a shape, or being passive and open and trying to see a vision, they both involve a car... and I ain't got one!

If you just sit and zone, letting your mind wander, do images come pass through it? If so, then you have a car. If not, then your intellect is rigidly and excessively trying to dominate everything to the exclusion of natural subconscious processes.

But maybe I do, if we are talking about masturbation fodder. I've been a few months celibate now for other reasons, but back in my young(er) and foolish(er) days, I definitely experienced vivid visualizations.

This might be a clue. The same force that stirs the capacity to visualize is the sex force. It is definitely innately stronger when the sex force is moving through you powerfully. (Or, another side is that if you are forcing yourself at all to shut down or minimize this, you're probably also desensitizing yourself to subtle states.) This is sometimes called "Finding the Secret of the Moon," because of Y'sod's relationship both to sexuality and to inner image-states and subconsciousness in general - it's all the same substance.

I guess I never thought magick was like that. That seems like bullshit visualization to me.

Proper use of the power of inner image-formation is perhaps the most important "occult secret" of magick that exists. (Have you read the Y'sod chapter of Dion Fortune's Mystical Qabalah lately? Remember that she says she has to shut up about a lot she could say about Y'sod, because this is exactly where the obligated secrets of the Mysteries are most concentrated?)

When I was young, I would REALLY SEE things on the backs of my eyelids every night. When I wake up in the morning on certain days and can change the color of my canvas, I am actually changing the colors.

You're changing your perception of the colors, I'm sure.

These things are like I'm watching TV! Fantasies, memories, and reading fiction don't feel like I'm watching TV.

With training, magical visualization becomes not only like watching TV, but like living through the experiences in real life. You need to sensitize and awaken the inner analogs of your physical senses - closely related to the processes whereby your brain puts images etc. into neural impressions. Remember, you aren't actually seeing anything with your physical senses - you are sending inadequate neural data to the brain, which then forms the whole thing. Every single thing you see in life is a consequence of visualization.

It's this half-blurry-not-sure-if-it's-real thing in the back of my head.

See, your intellect is getting in the way. Don't filter it on the way in. Dive into the experience, lose yourself in, write a good record of it, and apply skepticism to the contents of the record - not while having the experience. You have to get your intellect out of the way or you will never experience anything not already packaged and labelled by the intellect.

But in rare moments when I'm in the right state of mind, I see things with my eyes closed. I know my optic nerve isn't activated, but gosh darn they are as real as if they were right in front of me. They look JUST as vivid as after-images, even if they are not caused by optics.

See, you do have a car! Cool! Now the question becomes: How are you getting in your way when you set out to do something intentional with it?

So what gives? If visualization is just imagination (and it seems to be), then what do I call my experiences I've had scattered throughout my life where I am seeing behind closed eyes as if I'm watching a movie?

I think that you think that "imagination" is something untrue or fake. Imagination is the faculty of forming inner images. Whether the object is "real" in a particular framework is irrelevant. Physical sight only works because of imagination, and you call physical sight "real." Inner vision is "just imagination" in exactly the same way that outer vision is "just imagination." Your brain is doing it all - the only difference is where the initiative comes from.

BTW it is entirely possible that there is no physical universe - at least not in any sense that most people normally think of it - that all we have are perceptions of things we label as physical. (You don't have to believe that, but perhaps you have something to gain from contemplating that possibility.)

Are they two different phenomena or does masturbation vision eventually become so real that it feels like you're watching TV on your eye-lids?

A lot of people on this forum probably would tell you that their fantasies have always been as realling as watching TV on their eye-lids.

Not gonna lie, you really threw me for a loop when you said opening your third-eye had nothing to do with these two. Maybe that's what I'm looking for? Is that the one where you are actually seeing and not imagining that you are seeing (not to denigrate the latter)? Isn't opening your third-eye causing visual experiences?

Opening your Third Eye - fully awakening the Ajna chakra - is also called "Opening the Eye of Shiva" wherein the entire universe is destroyed. It's an experience in which that (without visual or other similar form) which is behind the universe is perceived, and the masking forms evaporate in flame (or whatever form the transition takes).

On a final note, by Western Tattwa I mean when the Tattwa symbols follow the Western shapes (instead of water being a crescent, it's a right-side-up blue triangle, just like in GD symbolism).

I don't know what "Western shapes" are that someone is calling Tattwas. By definition, Tattwas means the shapes described. Do you mean the elemental alchemical glyphs, perhaps?
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Luce » Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:19 pm

*This message was composed befire reading your new message, but i think it is still worth saying.*

Oh, one point of clarification that might help to explain why I'm talking about two things at once. My end goal is really not tattwa vision -- my goal is clairvoyance (if that's even the right word; I'm a bit confused now; I want to be able to see things on the backs of my eyelids like they were a television. I think such a skill would have a great many uses. If that ends up being masturbation vision but just really vivid, so be it. Im basically shooting for the same type of visual experience that occurs in a lucid dream. I don't feel like I'm imagining anything in a dream (even if that's all it is). I feel like I'm actually looking at things, just like in real waking life.)

I chose tattwa vision because it seemed like a good technique to achieve this. But then I thought, maybe dharana is better? Or maybe opening my third eye? So that's why I'm a bit all over the place. Really, my primary goal isn't to experience the elements -- its to gain the ability to see things behind closed eyes.

Also, Jim, I sent you a pm about a personal matter I was really hoping to get your advice on. I think I remember reading at one point that you'd disable pms on your account if you could, as you much prefer forum communication. I think you may have even said that you don't always check them, so I thought I'd mention it here so it isn't lost in the ether. If you've already read it, then please disregard this message. This really isn't my attempt to beg you to respond -- I just honestly don't know if you'll end up even knowing it's there if I don't mention it here, and it's an intensely important issue. It's much too personal for a public forum though, which is why I chose to pm you.
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:53 pm

Luce wrote:My end goal is really not tattwa vision -- my goal is clairvoyance (if that's even the right word

"Clairvoyance" is used in that way, yes.

I don't feel like I'm imagining anything in a dream (even if that's all it is). I feel like I'm actually looking at things, just like in real waking life.)

See, you still think "imagination" means something fake, or at least unreal. (You haven't read my last post yet, but it was worth repeating in response to this one; see details above.) "Imagination" just means "image-formation," i.e., seeing. The term has no inherent judgement on whether a thing is "real" in a particular framework.

I think I remember reading at one point that you'd disable pms on your account if you could, as you much prefer forum communication.

Mostly I just never look at them because, once I click the link, there is no longer a reminder that something is there - so I have to wait until there is a block of time when I can answer everything I run into that warrants answering. That kind of block of time isn't likely to hit until mid-summer unless I get sublimely lucky. I have 20+ PMs backed up according to the counter, so I'll get to them when I have a day or two uncommitted.
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Luce » Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:11 pm

I don't know what you mean by "coming to the Tarot a few months down the road." What you describe is a valid alternative exercise, but I was intentionally keeping things more austere and pristine.

I'm confused; didn't you say to randomly choose a major arcana card after I've spent 3 days meditating on each of the Hebrew letters? I'm just asking what to do with the trump once this time comes (does it hover like the Hebrew letters, do I contemplate its meaning, etc.)

That's confusing because you speak of aspects of one interchangeably with the other.

True, and I'm sure I don't realize how distinct they really are, based on what you said. I just assumed the commonality that links them is that they both involve visualization, even if one is "active" and one is "passive" if that makes sense. My goal is to work on visualization -- whether that happens via dharana or via tattwa vision is okay by me.

See, that's the problem - the Dharana discussion has little to nothing to do with Tattwa vision.

Surely they both involve the visual faculties though!

I would be surprised if anyone who has done half an hour of visualizing a colored geometric hasn't seen dozens of examples of the shape morphing. If you haven't, then you are one of the greatest yogis in the history of the world.

That's what confuses me! I've never had it morph. But I'm thinking that means I'm not really getting it right. As an example, I'm visualizing Miley as I type this. She's lying down on her side, as still as a statue. I stopped typing this and held the visualization, and she ain't moving. But then again I don't know if I'm visualizing her strong enough for movement to even be possible! It's like I'm hardly even seeing her, so how can I see her move? She's a confused mix of visual memory and the intellectual idea of Miley.

And yet you have no trouble imagining Miley in exactly the same way? What if Miley had a yellow square superposed over her pudenda?

Yeah, I can do that. Interesting image, to be sure. Neither of them are moving, but again, I feel like I'm not "truly" visualizing it. It really is 50% an image of Miley and her tattwa twat and 50% the "idea" of MIley and her T.T.

But, in fact, you aren't. You're seeing with your psyche, exactly the same faculty you need for the visualization exercises. The difference is, in a dream your self-conscious rational mind is out of the way. You have to get it out of the way while staying awake - that's where meditation practice comes into play.

I do know this; I just mean that the experience is the same as if I was alive. I know there are no cones and rods and whatever else being activated, but from my subjective POV, dream vision is phenomenally the same as waking-life vision.

If you just sit and zone, letting your mind wander, do images come pass through it? If so, then you have a car. If not, then your intellect is rigidly and excessively trying to dominate everything to the exclusion of natural subconscious processes.
Nope, images rarely pass through my mind when I let it wander. Ideas pass through it, words pass through it, but no images.

This might be a clue. The same force that stirs the capacity to visualize is the sex force. It is definitely innately stronger when the sex force is moving through you powerfully.

My PM explains implicitly why I'm celibate. Maybe that's related to my difficulties in visualization?

You're changing your perception of the colors, I'm sure.

Sure, I just mean that I'm seeing colors change as real as if my computer screen saver changed from red to green.

[/quote]With training, magical visualization becomes not only like watching TV, but like living through the experiences in real life. [/quote]
This is encouraging. I've been really disappointed when people say that scrying and such are just imagination... because my experience with fantasizing and stuff isn't that vivid. I can fantasize til the cows come home, and I really am seeing things, but it's nothing compared to the vividness of dreams, or of seeing things on the backs of my eyelids when I was a child. That (****) was as vivid as this computer screen is right now.

See, your intellect is getting in the way. Don't filter it on the way in. Dive into the experience, lose yourself in, write a good record of it, and apply skepticism to the contents of the record - not while having the experience. You have to get your intellect out of the way or you will never experience anything not already packaged and labelled by the intellect.

I think you're dead right about this. I'm constantly asking myself "am I actually seeing this?" and I think it messes me up. I suppose the best way to get past this is meditation?

I think that you think that "imagination" is something untrue or fake. Imagination is the faculty of forming inner images. Whether the object is "real" in a particular framework is irrelevant. Physical sight only works because of imagination, and you call physical sight "real." Inner vision is "just imagination" in exactly the same way that outer vision is "just imagination." Your brain is doing it all - the only difference is where the initiative comes from.

BTW it is entirely possible that there is no physical universe - at least not in any sense that most people normally think of it - that all we have are perceptions of things we label as physical. (You don't have to believe that, but perhaps you have something to gain from contemplating that possibility.)

Sure, I've thought a fair deal about phenomenalism when I used to study philosophy. I'm also a psych major, so it's not that I don't understand what's going on with vision and visualization. I know that it's all sensory information that we have no way of knowing the veracity of. Everything is perception and all that jazz. When I say that visualizations aren't "real" and that when I see something on the backs of my eyelids I'm "really seeing it," I don't mean "real" in the sense that I think only one of them has ontic validity. I mean that one of them "feels real" in the sense that one of them feels like waking-life vision and the other one "feels fake" in the sense that it just seems far off in the back of my head and doesn't resemble waking-life vision in the slightest. I hope I'm explaining that clearly. I'm really not commenting at all on the objectivity of the stimuli or experience; rather, I just want to experience visualization that feels as real *as if* I'm seeing it in real life. Choking the chicken to "Party in the USA" just doesn't have that quality of feeling real for me, whereas looking around in a lucid dream does.

Opening your Third Eye - fully awakening the Ajna chakra - is also called "Opening the Eye of Shiva" wherein the entire universe is destroyed. It's an experience in which that (without visual or other similar form) which is behind the universe is perceived, and the masking forms evaporate in flame (or whatever form the transition takes).

Are you saying that opening your third eye isn't related to clairvoyance? By any chance are you using the term in a different way than it's colloquially used today? From Wiki: "The third eye is often associated with religious visions, clairvoyance, the ability to observe chakras and auras." That's what I mean. I want to "open my third eye" in the sense that I want to experience religious visions, clairvoyance, and the ability to observe chakras and auras. Maybe you're talking in a technical Hindu way? I'm using the term in the way most New Agers would use it today.

I don't know what "Western shapes" are that someone is calling Tattwas. By definition, Tattwas means the shapes described. Do you mean the elemental alchemical glyphs, perhaps?

I think the Ciceros called them Tattwas, which is why I used that word. Yes, I mean the alchemical glyphs (I was assuming you'd pick that up, as I said blue triangle for water instead of a crescent). Regardless, they are sold as cards that are to be used in the same way as tattwas: the cards have brightly colored alchemical glyphs on them, and you're meant to use them in the same way you'd use normal Tattwa cards. They even have the sub-elements: so whereas Fire of Earth would normally be a red triangle inside of a yellow square, the Cicero deck has a red triangle inside a yellow triangle with a line through it. I read one experienced magician argue that he liked these better, as they use the glyphs that people in the Western esoteric tradition are already familiar with. This makes sense to me. When I see a point-down blue triangle, I think of water. When I see a silver crescent, I don't think of water (well, I'm starting to because of the tattwas, but you get the point: the glyphs are already familiar to people, but the tattwas are foreign and don't automatically conjure up that element). That being said, if the Cicero deck is actually that uncommon, then I should probably stick to the traditional tried-and-true Tattwas. Besides, I'm not sure if the glyphs work that well when it comes to differentiating between fire and air, and between earth and water. The presence of a single thin line might not make enough of a difference.

So, it seems that your diagnosis is correct: that my intellect keeps getting in the way. The question is, how can I stop this from happening? Do you think the egg exercise you recommended will be sufficient to make it happen? Or should I add in some other form of meditation to? Should I have some dharana thrown in there, or pranayama, or what? I'm just trying to figure out the best regiment to awaken my visual abilities. I'd kill to have the visual powers I did when I was 5...

That kind of block of time isn't likely to hit until mid-summer unless I get sublimely lucky. I have 20+ PMs backed up according to the counter, so I'll get to them when I have a day or two uncommitted.

Is it possible for me to send my question to you a different way, perhaps? My question isn't like this visualization question. I'm actually in a bit of a crisis situation that quite literally has the potential to be life or death (don't mean to be dramatic; it literally has almost led, either directly or indirectly, to my untimely death several times in the past few months though). In a very literal sense I am fighting for my life right now, and so I was really hoping to potentially see if you have any wisdom on the matter.
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Feb 06, 2016 9:02 pm

Luce wrote:
I don't know what you mean by "coming to the Tarot a few months down the road." What you describe is a valid alternative exercise, but I was intentionally keeping things more austere and pristine.

I'm confused; didn't you say...

Yes. I did. You were answering before I had the chance to remember I'd said that (remember, I made up that exercise protocol on the spot) and edit my answer. Sorry.

See, that's the problem - the Dharana discussion has little to nothing to do with Tattwa vision.

Surely they both involve the visual faculties though!

A big difference is that one is all about leveraging the self-conscious, rational mind, and the other is about getting it out of the way so that you can move unhindered through the realm of subconsciousness.

I would be surprised if anyone who has done half an hour of visualizing a colored geometric hasn't seen dozens of examples of the shape morphing. If you haven't, then you are one of the greatest yogis in the history of the world.

That's what confuses me! I've never had it morph. But I'm thinking that means I'm not really getting it right.

It might mean that you're insufficiently attentive. Perhaps not... but I mention this because it takes some people a while to notice these things. But, otherwise, I'm a bit perplexed. If you can form, say, an orange octagon and hold it in your inner visual field for even five minutes and have it not, say, turn into a rolling basketball, that shows an unbelievably awesome ability to concentrate.

It's like I'm hardly even seeing her, so how can I see her move? She's a confused mix of visual memory and the intellectual idea of Miley.

Yes, you keep mentioning this... not very vivid characteristic. I'm not sure what's going on. I keep thinking it's that you're intellect is too engaged, like it's really important for you to know the difference between something that's "really there" in the physical sense, and something that isn't. If that's true, then something in your mind is sorting things out, filing them one place or another, giving them different behaviors.

But, even if that's true... I'm still perplexed that images are invariable in your imagination. I've never known a single person - not one ever - for whom that is true. (There probably is a clue in your intermingling intellectual ideas about her with the image. Forget that, and just look at the image.) Don't just form it, observe it intensely.

But, in fact, you aren't. You're seeing with your psyche, exactly the same faculty you need for the visualization exercises. The difference is, in a dream your self-conscious rational mind is out of the way. You have to get it out of the way while staying awake - that's where meditation practice comes into play.

I do know this; I just mean that the experience is the same as if I was alive.

When I do astral vision, it's the same thing - I'm living it. When you read Crowley's visions in The Vision & the Voice, he's there, living it.

If you just sit and zone, letting your mind wander, do images come pass through it? If so, then you have a car. If not, then your intellect is rigidly and excessively trying to dominate everything to the exclusion of natural subconscious processes.
Nope, images rarely pass through my mind when I let it wander. Ideas pass through it, words pass through it, but no images.

What happens if you suppress thought? It could be (as mentioned above) that thoughts - intellect - are interfering. As an alternate theory, I'm now wondering if there is an atypical chemical balance in your brain (in the same way that schizophrenia has a different brain chemistry, but without being a mental illness) that blocks image formation.

Another practice: Go out for walks and, without thinking about what's going on or what you're seeing, intensely observe everything on the walk. Form intensely vivid impressions as you go. Don't put labels on them, don't interpret anything, don't have conversations with anyone. Then, as soon as you get back, sit down and replay in your mind the visual journey as thoroughly as you can. How real does that seem?

With training, magical visualization becomes not only like watching TV, but like living through the experiences in real life. [/quote]
This is encouraging. I've been really disappointed when people say that scrying and such are just imagination... [/quote]
The trap is the word "just." That comes from still thinking imagination involves stuff that's not real. Your capacity of imagination (image formation) is a tool that your psyche uses to give form to things not visible to physical senses. Some people think scrying is only a psychological journey. I think it is a perception of a reality reached through personal subconsciousness. I wrote a couple of pages about this in the early chapters of my book Visions & Voices.

See, your intellect is getting in the way. Don't filter it on the way in. Dive into the experience, lose yourself in, write a good record of it, and apply skepticism to the contents of the record - not while having the experience. You have to get your intellect out of the way or you will never experience anything not already packaged and labelled by the intellect.

I think you're dead right about this. I'm constantly asking myself "am I actually seeing this?" and I think it messes me up. I suppose the best way to get past this is meditation?

The best way past it is just stop it! You're probably trying to "be in control," or stuck on "not being fooled," or feeling you have to have real-time discernment of the truth of something. Screw that, it's {*******} with you. Sort it out later. (That's what the record is for.) I guarantee you this: If you are trying to be skeptical while actually undertaking these practices, you will almost certainly fail. Just play! Throw it all to the wind. Don't be so stuffy about the nature of reality. Realize you're doing this stuff because, ultimately, you don't have a clue what's real or not. Just get the {****} out of your own way.

Opening your Third Eye - fully awakening the Ajna chakra - is also called "Opening the Eye of Shiva" wherein the entire universe is destroyed. It's an experience in which that (without visual or other similar form) which is behind the universe is perceived, and the masking forms evaporate in flame (or whatever form the transition takes).

Are you saying that opening your third eye isn't related to clairvoyance?

Correct. It comes way after. No one below the grade of Master is likely to open the Ajna chakra.

By any chance are you using the term in a different way than it's colloquially used today?

Yes. I took you literally: Opening the Ajna chakra. If someone is using it just to mean "open inner sight,: then that's just a metaphor.

When I see a point-down blue triangle, I think of water. When I see a silver crescent, I don't think of water.

Stop thinking! :D (PDS - It's a matter of training, just like how you got the current associations.) One of the reasons these ae useful is because they break up patterns of things you've already decided stuff about.

So, it seems that your diagnosis is correct: that my intellect keeps getting in the way. The question is, how can I stop this from happening? Do you think the egg exercise you recommended will be sufficient to make it happen?

It could. It gives you 11 weeks of not thinking while visualizing.
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby ThelemicMage » Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:02 pm

I know it seems kind of redundant, but...

Practicing the lesser banishing rituals help one better understand the geometrics of the active universe, and become interactive with them.

Also, I had similar creative obstruction when I was a teenager, though I had read all of the books and could not find success, until I broke open my barriers with an herb that Crowley mentions in the first two installments of the Equinox, included, and seemingly as a direct recommendation as a meditational aid.
“The mushroom said to me once, ‘Nature loves courage. Nature loves courage,’ and I said, ‘What’s the payoff on that?’ And it said, ‘It shows you it loves courage because it removes obstacles.’ You make a commitment, and nature will respond to that commitment by removing impossible obstacles. Dream the impossible dream, and the world will not grind you under, it will lift you up.” -Terrence McKenna

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Hail Eris!
All Hail Discordia!!

Love under Will
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Frater 639 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:13 am

93,

Luce wrote:I know the GD claimed that tattwa vision is one of the fastest ways to develop clairvoyance. My clairvoyant (and visualization) skills are abhorrent. I can't seem to find any success by following the prescribed methods.


Visualization can be tough at first for some. How are you with clairaudience? Work with this first, then let the visuals follow, if it is more of a strength for you. Visuals, at first, are not going to be all that vivid for some.

Luce wrote:Does anyone have any further tips to the given methods? Specifically, my problem is that I can't really do anything with the afterimage. I see it when I close my eyes, but I can't make it grow to be a doorway, nor can I "enter" it. Eventually the after-image fades, and I just see blackness.


Largely, these methods of entering through some sort of "gateway" are not set in stone. Create what works for you. Those methods are suggestions and guideposts, not the rule.

Luce wrote:As a side question, many documents say to use the sign of the enterer or the rending of the veil to help get through the "door." I always assumed this was done in your head, but I read a passage in a random book yesterday that said you were supposed to physically stand up and physically do the sign of the enterer. Is this true? Do you physically make the sign, or just visualize it?


I visualize it. Some people physically make the sign. Neither is incorrect. I find visualizing was the best for me, when I was beginning, because it wouldn't interrupt the "knack" or "slipping into" that special point in consciousness that is not dreaming nor awake. It sounds like you're having issues with the "switchover" or "knack" that happens when entering into the "astral vision" so-called. Keep trying, but don't try too hard intellectually.

Luce wrote:Also, the afterimage is, of course, the complement color. Is there a way to mentally "switch" the color? Basically, is it possible (or even helpful) to mentally will the afterimage to change from, say, a purple square to a yellow square? If so, how can I accomplish this?Ideally, I would like a few ultra-basic exercises. I feel like the tattwa exercises, even though it seems quite basic, is still beyond my abilities, sadly. I feel like it has the most potential for me, as I really benefit from actually "seeing" the afterimage on closed eyelids, but I just don't know how to go past that stage. Does anyone know of any step-by-step basic techniques or hints to troubleshoot tattwa exercises? Even a book recommendation on the subject would be intensely helpful. I really want to build my visual skills from the ground up, and tattwas seem like the way to go, but I need a couple of simple steps to help me achieve it.


Ok. So, in time, you'll be able to figure out what is more supplied imagination and what is more auto-hypnotic. Dharana exercises are aids in concentration, not astral vision - and it sounds like you may be confusing Dharana concentration exercises, laid out in Liber E, and using the Tattwas for astral projection, like the Golden Dawn Bible lays out. Hard to tell - but don't worry so much about the complimentary colors and all that at first, as that can distract more than help.

Concentration exercises will help with astral projection, but they are almost opposites in a way. One is inhibitive (Dharana), the other more excitatory (astral work), when it comes to how your mind is used. I've found that people can travel astrally without too much difficulty with a few months work with Asana Proper practice first (as laid out in Eight Lectures on Yoga); then, use Liber O, part V.

A few points:

1.) Get an intermediate mastery of Asana Proper first. This will help you immensely. You will weed out the distractions that pull you back into more "linear" consciousness. Concentration is needed to stay in this part of the brain that can facilitate the "knack." It is a more "non-linear" state of consciousness.

2.) Try your practice when you first wake up. Try not to get too awake. Don't be concerned if you're doing it right. Let your imagination work freely with no restrictions at first. Create the Body of Light as prescribed in Liber O before trying to rise on the planes.

3.) So, the physiology is like this: you have two main systems of consciousness in your body, as classified by certain neuroscientists - let's call them "waking/active" state and the other "dreaming/passive" state. These states correspond to chemicals in your body. Astral projection engages both of these systems. It sounds like, based on what you've said, that you may be too much in the waking/active/rational part of the brain when attempting the practice.

I hope this is helpful!

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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby sevenoneves » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:02 am

This has been intensely helpful! Thanks for the discussion.
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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby sevenoneves » Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:56 pm

To get clarification on a point: In the egg and letter meditation, on the day that you pull out your random Tarot trump, you (Jim) said "sit into the same meditation for a day". Are you meaning to do the exercise as normal but with the random tarot trump visualised in front of you, or the letter for the trump, or something else?

Thanks for this and your other spontaneously put together graduated practices for us working alone out here in the wild.

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Re: Tattwa Vision

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:13 pm

sevenoneves wrote:To get clarification on a point: In the egg and letter meditation, on the day that you pull out your random Tarot trump, you (Jim) said "sit into the same meditation for a day". Are you meaning to do the exercise as normal but with the random tarot trump visualised in front of you, or the letter for the trump, or something else?

The assignment at the stage right before that is to sit in an egg the King Scale color of the letter, visualizing the letter in the complementary color. For example, if Alef, see yourself within a yellow egg with a violet Alef.
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