776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

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776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby gerry456 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:35 pm

Jim, or anyone else with the answer, in 776 1/2 in the five preliminaries to a working of using the holy forces of magic we need to ask is it necessary to perform the working? Is it aligned to my True Will? Here's the bit I do not understand, we must ask is this action if it is successful, non violative of another's True Will? How would or could I know this?
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:23 pm

It's just healthy boundaries; aka what rights, freedoms, and responsibilities you claim for yourself and others.

So, a working that has the intent of limiting another person's freedom, or harming them, or try to make them do what you want them to do (vs what they want to do) is one that is not respecting their True Will. Things like love spells (I want them to fall in love with me), or curses (I want them to get sick as punishment for attacking me).

It's simpler (and I've found more effective) to focus on what is in harmony with my True Will (what I desire that is also in harmony with my deepest truths). So if it were a love spell, I would craft a spell around what I want out of romance *in general* and what sort of romantic partner I want to be (and am happy with and capable of being). If someone were attacking me and trying to limit my freedom, I might craft a spell to return their intentions to them (without being specific about what should happen to them), or ignore them and do a working that was based around rising about it (e.g., they sue me for money, I make a wish to be prosperous and debt-free).

One thing you could do is to see if you could state your desire as an "I am" statement. As in "I am a magician with plenty of free time, and enough money to pay my bills comfortably, so that I can do more magick."
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby gerry456 » Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:03 am

Avshalom Binyamin wrote:It's just healthy boundaries; aka what rights, freedoms, and responsibilities you claim for yourself and others.

So, a working that has the intent of limiting another person's freedom, or harming them, or try to make them do what you want them to do (vs what they want to do) is one that is not respecting their True Will. Things like love spells (I want them to fall in love with me), or curses (I want them to get sick as punishment for attacking me).

It's simpler (and I've found more effective) to focus on what is in harmony with my True Will (what I desire that is also in harmony with my deepest truths). So if it were a love spell, I would craft a spell around what I want out of romance *in general* and what sort of romantic partner I want to be (and am happy with and capable of being). If someone were attacking me and trying to limit my freedom, I might craft a spell to return their intentions to them (without being specific about what should happen to them), or ignore them and do a working that was based around rising about it (e.g., they sue me for money, I make a wish to be prosperous and debt-free).

One thing you could do is to see if you could state your desire as an "I am" statement. As in "I am a magician with plenty of free time, and enough money to pay my bills comfortably, so that I can do more magick."


Yes well put. Of course Liber Librae is a good reference point for any working. I wouldn't do a "make her fall in love with me" working, I mean haha if I did ask her out and she refused then whatever, there's more out there like her. Also, why do I think she's worth my attention? Apart from her magnetic beauty and sex-appeal, what inner qualities does she have that I don't? This is in effect the real source of my obsession. Could I develop those missing tendencies within myself? Once resolved then I could do a general, bring me a love-mate working who can help reveal hidden parts of myself and vice versa.

In terms of "hexing", well let's say a boss is being a bully. Why do I think he is being a bully? Is there any truth in his criticism of my performance? Do I or have I ever had similar tyrannical tendencies within me in my present or past relationships? That's the question. if so, why? How?
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:40 am

gerry456 wrote:Jim, or anyone else with the answer, in 776 1/2 in the five preliminaries to a working of using the holy forces of magic we need to ask is it necessary to perform the working? Is it aligned to my True Will? Here's the bit I do not understand, we must ask is this action if it is successful, non violative of another's True Will? How would or could I know this?

Much of the time, you do know this, just as a matter of common sense. That is, it's pretty obvious if you are overtly damaging another person, {*******} with their life in the normal sense, that you're treading on their turf.

Of course, you could say, "Yes, but maybe this is the sort of situation where their true will really is to die now, or to lose their business, or to have that relationship broken up so I can run off with their lover, or ... something like that, right? Maybe I'm Nuit's tool in all of this and I should go right ahead with it." Even if accidentally correct, this dangerous turf, and nearly always is making excuses. If the universe demands such a thing that much, it will grab you by the balls against your will and hurl you into it as an unwitting rock, so you don't need to knowingly engage in it.

In any case, from the purpose of the ritual you are undertaking (rather than social engineering purposes), the real value is that you struggle mightily with this, that you forge yourself into a person who has a wider perspective than yourself and sees life in terms of continually cascading rows of dominoes falling in all directions. This grows you mystically and magically, and brings energy to the process, purging the trivial and forging every operation into a Grand Act in the heart of the universe.

It also draws up into your face shadow content that would otherwise sabotage your operation. That is, some part of you, either conscious or barely below the surface, knows whether you're {*******} with somebody else. You are empowered by staring this in the face and not leaving it to blindside you recoil in self-punishment.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in L.V.X.,
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"Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!" - CCXX 3:42
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby gerry456 » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:44 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:Much of the time, you do know this, just as a matter of common sense. That is, it's pretty obvious if you are overtly damaging another person, {*******} with their life in the normal sense, that you're treading on their turf..

Yeah I suppose if a particular person is involved within the actual intent then this is a narrowing of, well everything. This is therefore an attempt to restrict Nuit who is infinite. Not good. In other words magical intention should be general concepts.

Jim Eshelman wrote:In any case, from the purpose of the ritual you are undertaking (rather than social engineering purposes), the real value is that you struggle mightily with this, that you forge yourself into a person who has a wider perspective than yourself .

Yes as above i.e. what I just wrote.

Jim Eshelman wrote:It also draws up into your face shadow content that would otherwise sabotage your operation. That is, some part of you, either conscious or barely below the surface, knows whether you're {*******} with somebody else. You are empowered by staring this in the face and not leaving it to blindside you recoil in self-punishment.

Thanks Jim.
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby gerry456 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:02 am

However, commanding Bartzabel. This is {*******} with someone by dint of who Bartzabel is. That's his job is it not? A person may attack us and we then use Bartzabel to fulfill our drive for vengeance. Likewise some organization may attack us so if our attitude is don't {****} with people and their True Wills then why is Geburah there on the Tree?
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby Hermitas » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:33 am

On the most basic level...

If I oppose Kellyanne Conway with the goal of stopping her poisonous effect, that's Geburah.

If I seek to punish her and to destroy her life, that's a curse, and the qlippah of Geburah.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby Hermitas » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:53 am

The bottom line for me, though, is whether or not you're willing for the same thing to happen to you. If the will to curse consumes you to the point where are you no longer even care if the same thing happens to you, then it may very well be an act of Will. It may just be ordained, or it may be ordained that you learned through making this kind of mistake. You don't get to know beforehand. It may just all bounce back and hit you, leaving the intended unaffected. Likewise, it could also be just, ordained, and have a devastating effect. Or it could nail you both.

If it's really that big a deal to you, you don't get to know beforehand. You do and you learn.

Of course, I'm also kind of screwed up. So take it all with a grain of salt.
Last edited by Hermitas on Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:53 am

Vengeance is rarely a right motive, and its pursuit damages us, distorting us from our own Will.

G'boorah's purest expression is not vengeance but Justice, Diyn. By definition, Justice us a restoration of a higher order in which all Wills flow more freely and rightly.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby Hermitas » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:42 am

There... Did you see how brutal, uncertain, and dangerous my possible outcomes sounded compared to how wise Jim sounded?

Yeah. That.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby gerry456 » Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:08 am

Hermitas wrote:There... Did you see how brutal, uncertain, and dangerous my possible outcomes sounded compared to how wise Jim sounded?

Yeah. That.

Ok, cool...speaking of which...

Jim Eshelman wrote:Vengeance is rarely a right motive, and its pursuit damages us, distorting us from our own Will.

G'boorah's purest expression is not vengeance but Justice, Diyn. By definition, Justice us a restoration of a higher order in which all Wills flow more freely and rightly.

So Justice for all. In short someone who is not that close to their HGA wouldn't understand any of this?
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby Hermitas » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:00 pm

What makes you say that? It seems like a pretty basic concept to me.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby Hermitas » Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:17 pm

Just to clear some things up for any wide-eyed innocents out there. I've never sat down and structured an actual ritual to curse someone. The thought disgusts and disturbs me; though, once I was sorely tempted and asked all these same questions. But I am no innocent either. I know the power of the creative word, and I don't think I'm the only one guilty of damning this lawn mower or that darkened edge of furniture in the night. Occasionally, it has been pointed at a person or group. I do now take medication to help with that temper. But I note that after you give in and curse a thing in anger, you have some time afterward where you either take it back or push it forward. I have been so abused before that I did push it forward. It has *never* *not* bitten me back, and it has never to my knowledge had the intended effect. In fact, its ultimate effect has been to reintroduce this post-Christian Thelemite to the power of forgiveness.

I did successfully achieve justice once. It cut both ways too. There was a lesson for me as well.

Anyway... Fwiw
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby gerry456 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:23 am

Hermitas wrote:What makes you say that? It seems like a pretty basic concept to me.


I didn't mean intellectually.
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby gerry456 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:31 am

Hermitas wrote:Just to clear some things up for any wide-eyed innocents out there. I've never sat down and structured an actual ritual to curse someone. The thought disgusts and disturbs me; though, once I was sorely tempted and asked all these same questions. But I am no innocent either. I know the power of the creative word, and I don't think I'm the only one guilty of damning this lawn mower or that darkened edge of furniture in the night. Occasionally, it has been pointed at a person or group. I do now take medication to help with that temper. But I note that after you give in and curse a thing in anger, you have some time afterward where you either take it back or push it forward. I have been so abused before that I did push it forward. It has *never* *not* bitten me back, and it has never to my knowledge had the intended effect. In fact, its ultimate effect has been to reintroduce this post-Christian Thelemite to the power of forgiveness.

I did successfully achieve justice once. It cut both ways too. There was a lesson for me as well.

Anyway... Fwiw


Christianity and Thelema are not that really happy stable mates. If you want proof then read Crowley's Liber Al comments where he employs a lot of Nietzscean references. As I said in the OP, Satanism is all about the hex and Nietzsche ie they say why deny our own natural animal hatred? Why turn the other cheek? Is that not slave-morality? Therefore get hexing those who hurt you? That's their attitude but this forum is about Thelema not Satanism.
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby Hermitas » Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:26 am

Oh, you'll probably just have to remain unsatisfied with my doctrinal purity.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby Hermitas » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:01 am

Okay, no... I'll try not to be defensive and actually answer your question.

I think we have the freedom of the Child to learn ...everything.

I have learned a thing or two about forsaking my Christian programming about forgiveness. I did feel crippled by it, hindered, restricted, weakened, boxed up. I broke that conditioning, and... wow... I became a huge {***hole}, for one. For another, truly damning someone else really does seem to cut both ways and seems to make me literally go insane while it seemingly has no effect on others.

So, in the end, I don't see any contradiction between saying both:

1. You are not prohibited.
2. You will learn that it {*******} hurts and sucks.

I'm just going to be that guy that ends up saying that forgiveness does seem to actually be (from personal experience) the more psychologically healthy and safe response. And if you just can't stand it, and it just seems like forgiveness is going to be the weak option that "allows evil to flourish," then call for Justice instead. But know that unless you're perfect, it will probably cut you too.

I don't have anything else to say about it. I don't know everything. But this response will probably make my earlier response make more sense for some.

I believe we are all free to learn for ourselves.
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Re: 776 1/2 nonviolative of another's TW

Postby LD330 » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:51 pm

gerry456 wrote:Christianity and Thelema are not that really happy stable mates. If you want proof then read Crowley's Liber Al comments where he employs a lot of Nietzscean references. As I said in the OP, Satanism is all about the hex and Nietzsche ie they say why deny our own natural animal hatred? Why turn the other cheek? Is that not slave-morality? Therefore get hexing those who hurt you? That's their attitude but this forum is about Thelema not Satanism.

I don't think turning the other cheek would be slave morality. Slave morality would be considering, in the first place, the idea that something else has power over you.

A quote from Nietzsche himself (Zarathustra): "I love the great despisers, because they are the great adorers, and arrows of longing for the other shore."

What I like about Thelema is the idea of the Aeon of Horus. There is nothing to take revenge for in the first place: your original impulse and highest aspiration were never wrong.

A lot of this easy is to say philosophically, and difficult to do practically.
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