Are there Satanic Thelemites.Satanist are bashing thelemites

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Are there Satanic Thelemites.Satanist are bashing thelemites

Postby Kingsolomon » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:32 pm

I was on a forum and note to me what they said.. I hope this is NOT true..

Of course this comes from joyofsatan.org and the joy of satan Yahoo Webgroup.

from a member, which i excluded his name.

here it goes:


Trust me, anyone that uses the methods for "calling up Demons" that
involves any kind of circles or triangles, "angelic" or those stupid
"god names," uses the "Seal of Solomon," evokes the Demon (daemon as
it's sometimes spelled) and then FUCKING COMMANDS IT INTO A GODDAMN
VESSEL TO CARRY OUT THE BIDDING OF THE "MAGE" WILL *NOT,* I REPEAT NOT
BE SEEING A FUCKING DEMON! It may look like a Demon, but it isn't.
Or at least not one of Satan's, that is.

Some of the ceremonial magician's are psycho-magicians, both
literally and figuratively. Many believe that Daemons are just the
"demons of one's mind." If that is the case, WHY THE {****} WOULD YOU
WANT TO CALL THAT PART OF YOUR MIND INTO A FUCKING TRIANGLE USING THE
"HOLY TETRAGRAMMATON," YOUR WORTHLESS HGA (holy guardian angel) AND
BIND IT INTO A TRIANGLE WHEN *YOU SHOULD BE THE ONE THAT IS TIED UP IN
A FUCKING STRAIGHT-JACKET?!!! Fucking losers.

Demons are *not* "fallen angels." Nor are they "spirits." They
weren't born on Earth or in "heaven" and they were never "cast to or
into the Earth." They are *not* aspects of ones own mind, archetypes,
"dark matter," "unholy spirits of lies that rebelled against dog."
For one who isn't a jew or one of the Gentiles that are still crazy
enough to follow xianity, SATAN is God! Satan and His Demons are
flesh and blood just like we are, except they have achieved physical
and spiritual perfection and are immortal.

http://www.666blacksun.com/Safe_Satanism.html

The Demons of the Goetia that were bound by "Solomon" who never even
existed were bound by a bunch of kikes (along with their "heavenly
angels") who themselves claim to be "God."

Right here a book written by an alleged "Satanist/Luciferian" refers
to the 72 Goetic Demons as the "72 spirits of the Shemhamforash" and
recommends commanding Demons/Djinn into urns or vessels "for a time."
Doesn't that sound familiar to the kikes and their copycats "The
Society of Jesus/Jesuits? Some Jesuits among other Christians are
kikes themselves. Furthermore, this "Ceremonial Luciferian"
encourages the mage to use the "Seal of Solomon" and command them to
appear to the mage "peacefully and in a form that is pleasing," and
afterwards, giving a "license to depart peacefully, harming no man nor
animal." Once again buying into the descriptions by the enemies of
Satan and the Original Gods (Demons) which claims them to be some kind
of "evil monsters."

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpent ... orash.html
http://www.666blacksun.com/Temple%5Fof%5FSolomon.html
http://www.666blacksun.com/YHVH.html

Anyone who uses these methods and thinks that it is actually some
Demon "spirit" appearing within the triangle or even being transferred
into some kind of a "vessel" such as an urn where the mage can watch
this "entity grow" like a {*******} Chia pet (an evil bunny wabbit!) is
not only being inexcusably DISRESPECTFUL, but are deluded because the
Real Demons are free now.

To the arrogant assholes that say "PROVE IT!" Okay then. The simple
truth is that if what you are seeing looks like a Demon, it isn't the
actual Demon that you have summoned because if it was.... THEY WOULD
FUCKING RIP YOUR SORRY ASS TO SHREDS!!!! They are not politically
correct and they do not conform to human-based laws or standards. If
you have used this method and they haven't torn you limb from limb,
then that's no {*******} Demon. They do NOT excuse arrogant stupidity
in the name of the pseudo "Left Hand Path initiations for
self-deification." If anyone says to this "I thought Demons weren't
evil." They're not, but they don't tolerate stupidity and they do NOT
turn the other cheek. Perhaps that's why some see the "solomonic
spirit" that they've conjured and haven't had the (****) scared out of
them or worse. The actual Demons don't waste their time on the weak.

http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpent ... emons.html

Demons are kind to those who are serious about Satanism. Those that
have went through Satan and summoned a Demon through Him but didn't
get the results they wanted or when they wanted them, then there was a
reason. Satan NEVER accepts a dedication to Him from anyone He knows
might turn their backs on Him due to insolent impatience or for
some other reason which I'm sure is obvious by now. Some of us are
truly "marked by Satan" as in He has placed His Affairs in the hands
of those that He has tried and are in accordance with His Desires.
Others aren't. Those that have been with the Joy of Satan (many have
been here longer than I've been here) for a while and feel comfortable
with Satan's Teachings and those that are new and have a pretty good
feeling should indicate something. [Right now, I'd like to applaud a
couple of members that have been here since spring 2007 and have
really been kicking ass. You know who you are].

By the way, I've studied LaVey's, Crowley's, Spare's, Parson's
(revelation of the whore of babalon), Phil Hine's, Peter J. Carroll's,
Israel Regardie's, Eliphas Levi's, Dion Fortune's, Mathers' R.A.
Wilson's, Joshua Saraphim's, Jason Black's, Christopher S. Hyatt's,
Michael W. Ford's, J Thorps' teachings and the list goes on. So
nobody can tell *me* that I'm "uneducated" or that I'm not
"well-read." Out of all of these so-called "credible" sources,
http://www.joyofsatan.com is where the true source and knowledge,
enlightenment and power are at.

So, if you are truly curious about Satan, Demons (the Real Ones) which
it doesn't sound like you're too familiar with, due to the methods
you've mentioned and the "credentials" you've listed, then I have one
simple advice for you and that is to read everything on
http://www.joyofsatan.com and if you want to know more about how our
GODS- (Demons are Gods, not spirits) have been treated
by kikes and their JEWISH organizations (or have been infiltrated by
jews and their xian copycats) such as the Golden Dawn, Rosy
Crosses or whatever, OTO, etc, then feel free to read
http://www.666blacksun.com. If you are meant to be a Satanist, you
will see how Thelema and actual Satanism do not coincide
with each other and are not even part of the same family.

I covered more than I meant to and made a simple reply into a long
"sermon," but obviously some of this definitely applies to the
original poster of this thread. If you're really serious about
Satanism and are truly willing to give up all of that ceremonial crap,
then the "horrible name-calling" I gave doesn't apply to you if that
is the case. Regardless, you'll have to decide between Thelemic
practices or true Satanism. There is no Thelemic Satanism. However,
before I dedicated my soul to Satan, I was reading Crowley and the
Order of Nine Angles and the transition was much easier for me, but
this reply will serve as an example for new people to take heed to.

The Joy of Satan is the only Satanism that truly belongs to Satan.
Plain and simple.

END Please keep reading my response below


Are there Satanic Thelemites? I mean Ceremonial Magick works. When you call up Goetic spirits they are the same spirits as the satanist call up, vasaggo is one goetic spirit, bael is one as well, if you call them up, you will get them. How can you not say Thelema is fake, Thelema has no Jewish or hebrew or chiristian orgin.

What does this satanist mean by what he says

King Solomon

If so.. then what we are doing is wrong?
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Re: Are there Satanic Thelemites.Satanist are bashing thelem

Postby jw. » Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:32 pm

Historically a particular culture's demons are often the gods of its enemies. This form of satanism does the opposite, by making its gods of its enemy's demons.

Kingsolomon wrote:WHY THE {shag} WOULD YOU WANT TO CALL THAT PART OF YOUR MIND INTO A {shagging} TRIANGLE USING THE "HOLY TETRAGRAMMATON," YOUR WORTHLESS HGA (holy guardian angel) AND BIND IT INTO A TRIANGLE WHEN *YOU SHOULD BE THE ONE THAT IS TIED UP IN A {shagging} STRAIGHT-JACKET?!!! {shagging} losers.


In Crowley's system it is pretty clear that spirits like "Baal" are to be taken as parts of the psyche. In Magick (parts 2 and 3), both the circle & triangle reside within the temple, which represents the whole of the magician's consciousness & universe. The circle contains materials, energies, spirits concentrated toward the magician's Great Work (purification, consecration, initiation, invocation of God(s)). It represents a star within the universe. The triangle outside of the circle is for focusing energies which are not disposed to the Great Work (evocation of spirits). It represents a dark satellite of the star in need of illumination (hmm... dark-matter?). The evocated spirit is charged with a task the magician believes will further their Work, and if successful reflects the magician's starlight, like a moon or planet.

By the way, I've studied LaVey's, Crowley's, Spare's, Parson's (revelation of the whore of babalon), Phil Hine's, Peter J. Carroll's, Israel Regardie's, Eliphas Levi's, Dion Fortune's, Mathers' R.A. Wilson's, Joshua Saraphim's, Jason Black's, Christopher S. Hyatt's, Michael W. Ford's, J Thorps' teachings and the list goes on. So nobody can tell *me* that I'm "uneducated" or that I'm not "well-read." Out of all of these so-called "credible" sources, http://www.joyofsatan.com is where the true source and knowledge, enlightenment and power are at.


Well if that's the best list of author's he can cite, I'm just gonna say it: he's not well-read occultly or otherwise. How many of those authors are viewed as credible sources? Outside of occult circles: none!

On a personal note, I think it is cute that "the true source of knowledge" is found on a website with red text on a black background complete flaming hail-satan gifs (what, no rotating skulls?).
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Postby Kingsolomon » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:08 pm

did you see on that site where you can dedicate your soul to satan in blood signing?



there serious about that..
and you can buy books, tapes instructional cd's

But YET THELEMA is the devils work?

and they have lucifer's sigil

plus they honor the goetia, that MAGICIANS like crowley and mathers discovered.

research that site.

it almost tempted me .. and I dont know why.

I'll stick with thelema

93 93/93
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Postby YHVH » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:39 pm

[quoteHow can you not say Thelema is fake, Thelema has no Jewish or hebrew or chiristian orgin. ][/quote]
It has, among others, all three (actually, two) of these.

About left-hand-path "thelemites": I think that the Book of the Law is pretty clear about this (personal oppinion):

I22.
Now, therefore, I am known to ye by my name Nuit, and to him by a secret name which I will give him when at last he knoweth me. Since I am Infinite Space, and the Infinite Stars thereof, do ye also thus. Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.


Isn't this instruction clearly contrary to the objectives of the LHP???
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Postby nashimiron » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:11 am

YHVH wrote:About left-hand-path "thelemites": I think that the Book of the Law is pretty clear about this (personal oppinion):

I22.
Now, therefore, I am known to ye by my name Nuit, and to him by a secret name which I will give him when at last he knoweth me. Since I am Infinite Space, and the Infinite Stars thereof, do ye also thus. Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.


Isn't this instruction clearly contrary to the objectives of the LHP???


It's certainly contrary to the situation with Black Brothers but thats not related to left hands or right hands. :? My understanding is that the Black Brothers are those who have turned back at the point of crossing the Abyss, and it makes no difference how you got there, LHP or RHP or you take the high road and I'll take the low road. :lol:

I've seen a lot of debates raging about how you should define the LHP and RHP, most sensible suggestions for those who need such definitions suggest the LHP is all about tantric practices and quaffing down gallons of bodily fluids.

At the end of the day though I think all these definitions are subjective and limiting. If you want to play the guitar properly you need to use both hands!
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Postby YHVH » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:58 am

I've seen a lot of debates raging about how you should define the LHP and RHP, most sensible suggestions for those who need such definitions suggest the LHP is all about tantric practices and quaffing down gallons of bodily fluids.


When I said LHP, I meant being a Black Brother. Seems non-thelemic by definition.
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Postby Wilder » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:20 pm

nashimiron wrote:
YHVH wrote:About left-hand-path "thelemites": I think that the Book of the Law is pretty clear about this (personal oppinion):

I22.
Now, therefore, I am known to ye by my name Nuit, and to him by a secret name which I will give him when at last he knoweth me. Since I am Infinite Space, and the Infinite Stars thereof, do ye also thus. Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.


Isn't this instruction clearly contrary to the objectives of the LHP???


It's certainly contrary to the situation with Black Brothers but thats not related to left hands or right hands. :? My understanding is that the Black Brothers are those who have turned back at the point of crossing the Abyss, and it makes no difference how you got there, LHP or RHP or you take the high road and I'll take the low road. :lol:

I've seen a lot of debates raging about how you should define the LHP and RHP, most sensible suggestions for those who need such definitions suggest the LHP is all about tantric practices and quaffing down gallons of bodily fluids.

At the end of the day though I think all these definitions are subjective and limiting. If you want to play the guitar properly you need to use both hands!


LHP/ RHP, as used by most Satanic religions, boils down to something along the following lines:

LHP seeks to empower the ego and leads towards apotheosis.

RHP seeks to break down the ego and leads to Tao/ Samadhi/ ect.

I don't really see how you can "play with both hands" and simultaneously build and break down your ego so as to sever yourself from the universe and become one with it. I don't know what debates you've been looking at, but systems like LaVeyan Satanism are both clearly LHP and clearly devoid of "tantric practices and quaffing down gallons of bodily fluids" - "I am my own God" is enough to fit the definition resoundingly.

The reason black brothers are black brothers, according to Crowley, is that they refuse to let go of their ego - that is, they take the Left Hand Path. Properly crossing the Abyss in Crowley's system means letting go of one's ego, and embracing the Right Hand Path.


As for the actual OP:

1) First one would have to establish which Satanism we're discussing. Joy of Satan is very different than Church of Satan is very different than Temple of Set is very different than the Order of Nine Angels, and so forth.

2) Joy of Satan = crazy people. Unless, of course, we actually want to get on the boat with people who preach that the war on Iraq was Bush's attempt to destroy artifacts in Saddam's possession that could disprove Christianity.

3) Ceremonial magick =/= Thelema. The fact that many Thelemites practice Goetia, as do many followers of JoSM, in no way implies that the two systems are compatible. Technically there may be overlaps, but philosophically they are worlds apart.

4) I stand by YHVH's point about LHP/ RHP - one of the few common elements amongst Satanic religions is the LHP desire to strengthen the ego.
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Postby xfilesalbania » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:56 pm

i'm no expert in satanism or in the joy of satan for that matter.
But it seems fairly clear to me that Thelema and Satanism are very different, at least very different from that kind of Satanism that guy was talking about. I can't see no difference between the way he spoke about satan, and the way a common priest would talk about God, very superficial, and very litteral, meaning that he takes satan as an Entity that actually is and has to be worshiped, much like God. From what i understand from his words, his view of magic is just Satan worship and demon evocation.
Master Crowley's teachings are universal, subtle, deep and meaningful, and can't be compared to some fanatic Satanist view of Magick(if they really do understand what Magick is).

To the question that is there any Satanist Thelemite, i'd say, it depend's on what kind of satanism we are talking about, what we mean with Satan.

I for example have a very deep respect for the figure of Lucifer, The Rebel, and i don't ask if he even exists or not because i do not really care. I that respect i might be called a Satanist from a lot of common people, but i'm in line with Crowley's ideas, and in that regard i might be called a thelemite, although i don't know if i am really one.
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Postby jlpugh » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:18 pm

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

How does an organization purporting to be evil operate anyhow? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't everyone just rebel against the authority of the group until there's nothing left? What could be more honorable in a satanic cult than usurping the authority of the group?

I think organizations of human beings that are evil by principle only exist in movies and video games. In order to be a truly evil organization, you've got to pretend to be good.

Kingsolomon wrote:it almost tempted me .. and I dont know why.

Don't be tempted by upstarts. If you want to join a truly evil organization, I happen to know of one that is worldwide. They've been perpetrating sexual abuse on children, and systematically covering it up for years. And they're rich!

Love is the law, love under will.
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Postby Wilder » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:07 pm

How does an organization purporting to be evil operate anyhow? Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't everyone just rebel against the authority of the group until there's nothing left? What could be more honorable in a satanic cult than usurping the authority of the group?

JoSM doesn't purport to be evil.
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Postby Uni_Verse » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:58 am

As Above, So Below

I would be wary of any orginization that says they are right and everyone else is wrong.

It is not odd, that they would see the demons "differently." Worshiping them as Gods certainly has an effect on how they view them.
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Postby Kingsolomon » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:54 am

the joy of satan is below me actually


there is some people who practice luciferian witchcraft...

maybe hillary clinton??


but who knows of that organization that systematically abuses children..

Theres a whole bunch of them..

some say the OTO is evil as well and the Rosicrucians..

They even go as so far to say that the Rosicrucians Run the world.. along with Bilderberg, Bohemian Grove, and the Freemasons..

I belong to 70% of the groups i'm saying here except bohemian grove and bilderberg. I have to be rich and powerful to belong to both of those groups..

I agree there is some power with the Rosicrucians and theres Power with the Freemasons. I've found that they both lead to one supreme being. and the OTO does as well..

But in these organizations, they all teach you to master your own will, even the masons do. Yeah you might have to acknowledge baphomet by symbols. But one thing about symbols, People put power into a symbol. Without People, a symbol would be nothing.

all these dumb ass people like inforwars.com and bilderberg.org. and davidicke.com. Alex Jones, Dr. Stanley Monteith, Tony from Bilderberg.org and David Icke all make money off our stupidity, they say that all these organizations are evil, and that they puport a one world order..

The one world order, It might be possible. but even they say the JOY of satan is doing the same thing..

Friends, all these organizations are doing to me is Costing me money.

If you are proficient at Thelema and Witchcraft, and Rosicrucianism, You can do anything you ever wanted to do. ... You dont need the Joy of Satan to do things..

I admit I bought some stuff out of their website, they ripped me off, becuase I already knew the magick and stuff, all they did was talk about runic kabbalah, and egyptian kabbalah.

really.. the whole point is your true will. and Ceremonial Magick if you want something or need something..

thats the whole point in life with knowledge and conversation with your holy guardian angel in which i'm working on right now.
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There is no law beyond do what thou wilt.
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Postby redd fezz » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:05 pm

nashimiron wrote:
YHVH wrote:About left-hand-path "thelemites": I think that the Book of the Law is pretty clear about this (personal oppinion):

I22.
Now, therefore, I am known to ye by my name Nuit, and to him by a secret name which I will give him when at last he knoweth me. Since I am Infinite Space, and the Infinite Stars thereof, do ye also thus. Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.


Isn't this instruction clearly contrary to the objectives of the LHP???


It's also clearly contrary to other statements written by Crowley, who seemed perfectly happy to cause hurt, so I don't know that I understand your statement.
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Postby redd fezz » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:35 pm

Something very interesting on the link to the Runes, supposedly the original Kabballah:

http://www.geocities.com/futhark_runes/ ... aning.html
Eihwaz, literally referring to a Yew Tree and thereby reminding us of the Tree of Life, represents the Cycle of Life and Death. The Death of the Old Age of the Zodiac, and the Birth of the New Age.


I've mentioned this rune before on this forum, but I think Jim's response was that he just had no interest in it.
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Postby Kingsolomon » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:03 am

i'm interested in runic and egyptian kabbalah red fezz,. it's the same as the hebrew kabbalah, but I have to find the names and where they fit in the tree of life and how they fit, and how to vibrate the names you want to vibrate while practicing kabbalah, maybe you might have a resource for me
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Postby redd fezz » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:36 am

Kingsolomon wrote:i'm interested in runic and egyptian kabbalah red fezz,. it's the same as the hebrew kabbalah, but I have to find the names and where they fit in the tree of life and how they fit, and how to vibrate the names you want to vibrate while practicing kabbalah, maybe you might have a resource for me


I don't know if there is a runic Kabballah necessarily, but the Joy Of Satan people seem to be saying so. We do know for pretty certain that the Qabalah does come from Egypt prior to the Jewish Kabballah and that the Jews probably got it from the Greeks who got it from Egypt. Interestingly, there were some tradelines that ran through the frozen north part of Europe where there just happens to be runic inscriptions all over the place and a religion which is still being pieced together which is remarkably similar to what we know of the Qabalah. There are some fair differences, though, too: the trees are not identical, for example.

Your best bet would be to check out the YahooGroups. There is one dedicated to the Runes which is full of academics and people to whom the runes are part of their heritage and culture. One woman I met there wrote some ground-breaking book about the runes as an academic (University) text that was about 2.5 inches thick and cost about $100 if I remember correctly. This is the most up-to-date source of accurate information about the Runes that I know of.

I wouldn't take too much stock in what American "rune experts" claim. Apparently, Stephen/Edred is off the mark quite a bit... and he is generally considered one of the foremost experts on the runes in these English-speaking parts. Check out the YahooGroups, but if I was you, I would NOT mention the word "Kabballah." They're likely to politely dismiss your questions as foolish cross-breeding or something.
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Postby Kingsolomon » Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:53 am

I understand why Jim would not be interested in that. He already knows the kabbalah.

That Joy of Satan is quite goofed up..


The only legit satanic group I've seen is www.luciferianwitchcraft.com/main

they promote the books of Michael W. Ford. Who.. LOL Ironically was a member of the OTO.

These people.. Thelema is the truest source of all spiritual contact.
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Postby redd fezz » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:06 am

Yeah, the sort of people often interested in the runes kind of freaks me out. A lot of them seem to be pretty into Nazi ideas. Some, like Stephen Flowers, keep a certain distance, but given the books he's published about the Nazi occult practices, it's hard to believe he's not pro-Nazi.

And what I really don't get about these people is they seem to think they're on the stronger side (side of Satan, that is)... but, like, if that were true, would Satanists be hiding in a closet right now? If Satan was pro-Hitler (as JOS / Black Sun website listed above seems to think), doesn't it say something that Hitler lost? And, according to them, the Jews and their Jewish magick have the world wrapped around their finger! To me, that indicates, if nothing else, that the "Satan" people are on the weaker side, not the stronger side.

The little bit I read about Crowley's interest in Hitler and the little bit I've read about Crowley's readiness and even delight in sadism, dishonesty and violence turned me off quite a bit at the time(s), so I just can't imagine joining a group who's whole ambition in life is to help Satan fight a war against the Jews. Then what??? Everlasting ultimate satisfaction?! I seriously doubt that's possible with a mindset hellbent on war and revenge. If you're into Jew-hating, war and honorable death (in battle), why not just become a nutty terrorist? Seems about as fulfilling. But, no! Of course not! Because those people are semitic! They can only be happy if they are aryan bullies. It's very easy to see how arbitrary and deluded these people are... and, in my opinion, that tends to happen when personification comes into religious ideas of dualism.[/b]
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Postby Kingsolomon » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:19 pm

Ah yes, I agree Redd Fezz, the only way to become truly knowledgeable, is get ALL the books, and take in what is useful and discard what is useless. But Thelema is really the basis of ALL magick, because it teaches all the fundementals of Jewish magick with is Kabbalah.. Right?
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Postby Kingsolomon » Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:21 pm

have you all ever read and watched videos on hitler and the occult practices.

wewelsburg castle, the black sun, all of which are satanic in some form or another..


another thing to consider that the demons and satan have really ran strong in africa,

Look at the country of africa, Darfur, the diamond trading of the past. The Goetic spirits will not hide the fact that some of them are spirit behind Africas misfortune,

Vassago said to Poke Runyon in the DVD The dark mirror of Magick, that A son of Africa will be slain.. 2 weeks later in early 2001, The President of Congo was murdered by his bodyguard.

And these People are Loyal to these spirits... I mean This is some deep stuff were talking here.

Joy of Satan
The temple of Set
the Church of Lucifer
The Church of Satan
and many others who are opposing the TRUE source of magick.. Thelema..

Wow I could be a Public speaker. Get get peoples attention..

or a preacher who colelcts money and rides off in a 2007 Coupe DeVille.. YES, that is wonderful to think of.
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Postby redd fezz » Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:24 pm

If demons are going crazy in Africa, all it proves to me is that it's not rewarding to invest your time in them. Worst place in the world to live = get 1 Jesus Christ, people. :wink:
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Postby Kingsolomon » Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:30 pm

I dont encourage anyone to do Goetia,


But if you do, ask the spirit you summon, about what were taking about and see what they say..

They have to tell the truth..

I have yet to do Goetia, because i'm not Proficient in Thelema in that stage of my true will, and when I do Goetia, I will probably never do it by myself..


They do not play with humans, they hate us for many reasons. But some do help us. But they seem not not tell the truth to the Satanist, They have to read old Grimoiries to get the truth.
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Postby redd fezz » Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:04 pm

I don't know why they would "have" to tell the truth. I think you'd have to be pretty confident in your level of accomplishment to consider it a fact that a Goetic demon has told you the "truth" when truth is relative and demons have the known tendencies to lie and manipulate. I don't think whatever they would have to tell me about what we've been discussing would be all that enlightening. As far as the Poke Runyun thing, I've seen more amazing coincidences in Tarot spreads and daily life/pathwork. Poke Runyun also does some simple things like the LBRP differently than anyone else, so I don't know what system he's supposed to be using. As far as I can tell, any idiot can mess around with demons and demons are good at convincing mere humans of just about any idiotic thing. In the end, there is no way to prove a demon, or any apparent outside entity for that matter, including humans, is benign... but, trusting beings who claim responsibility for African chaos and tragedy is about as wise as joining the Blood or Crip street gangs for safety.
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Postby Kingsolomon » Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:25 pm

I disagree kind of.


If what King Solomon did with the goetic spirits is not true..


quite frankly, I dont think thats true in my opinion.

or when Jack Parson called bartzabel, summoned him up, and pulled Ron Hubbard back to shore,

Then I guess there is no such thing as demons.

youre a thelemite? Right? You probably have more knowledge than me about Thelema Right? but I mean these are mere opinions. From Christian and True and thelemic sources.

You must believe that humans in general will not cause such as great of evil as whats going on over in Africa?

Humans are evil yes.. But only to a Certain extent. They can only have but so much evil.. Because after too long, the true nature of human will take over.

What is the true nature of Humanity.. Thelema, our Own Will, Isnt it?

anything can happen and Demons are real, and they not only exist in our minds but in world as well, they are invisible but become visible at their will.

I understand your points, and I agree but. let me ask you

when people do goetia, what is their goal.. Why would they mess with such a horrible beings such as goetic spirits?
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Postby redd fezz » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:01 pm

Kingsolomon wrote:youre a thelemite? Right? You probably have more knowledge than me about Thelema Right? but I mean these are mere opinions. From Christian and True and thelemic sources.


I don't think I'm really the best "Thelemic" example. I've been into Crowley for almost 20 years now, but never joined any of the A.'.A.'. branches, OTO, TOT or anything. I have been a member of BOTA and I certainly have tried a lot of different things. Studying the Golden Dawn lead me through several phases, including in-depth study of Vedanta and Hinduism. Along the way, like Crowley, I was interested in Buddhism. In fact, I'd say for some inexplicable reason, I was always drawn to Tibetan Buddhism. I saw them on TV when I was, like, 12 and thought to myself, "They have it. I don't know what it is, but one day, I want to make time to find out what it is..." and then I kind of forgot about it. It wasn't until later-- MUCH later-- after putting the Western Mystery Tradition above ALL ELSE in my life, including employment, love and social distraction, that Thelema pointed me back in the general direction of Tibetan Buddhism. Vajrayana then led me to Dzogchen, which I have only been studying for 1 year...and it has opened up Crowley's writings like you would not believe. I am convinced this was the difference between Crowley and Bennett. Bennett followed Theravada, Crowley followed Dzogchen. Dzogchen is called "Highest Yoga Tantra." As Buddhism intentionally violated the taboos of Hindu culture, Dzogchen intentionally violates the taboos of Theravada Buddhism. But, it is oh so Buddhist! However, I understand Crowley's disparaging remarks toward "the Buddhist" in his various writings. At the time, Theravada was what was commonly known. I have a feeling in his travels, he contacted Dakinis and Devas which filtered their knowledge through Crowley's extensive Western background.

In the end, there is really not a lot of difference between various cultural energy forms, whcih is why WMT tends to group things as if they were "basically the same" on the Tree of Life organizational scheme, whether they are Egyptian, Greek, Hindu or Norse religious ideas. I have convincingly compared the Tree of Life to the Cosmic Refuge Tree in Vajrayana Buddhism, for example. I have compared Dzogchen cosmology to Qabalistic cosmology and I did not come up short. I was not disappointed!

So, what I am saying is that this idea of who is "right" and "wrong" is not exactly cut-and-dried for me, personally. I mean, do you REALLY think that either the Satanists on Joy of Satan are right OR Crowley's Thelema is right? I don't. These are all relative concepts. The ultimate nature of reality is more simple and less bigoted than that. Why Thelema interests me more than other WMT Qabalistic schools is that Crowley treats the whole thing sensibly: in relative terms, he treats his focus of attention "as if it were real" at the time, just as though in ordinary life you and I are illusory we treat each other as real enough for the moment. There is an interaction, a unity of purpose and experience in every moment. Surrendering to that moment is experience of Truth in the real, truthy-truth accurate sence of the word "truth." As soon as we label it "truth," however, it becomes a consideration and therefore just a conceptual limitation: a lie like everything else. But, experience for its own sake is true. All of the physical phenomena are "ornaments of the Mind" in Dzogchen teaching. When we approach things with an "accept or reject" attitude, we fall into error. As Crowley's Aiwass said, "by division comes hurt" (or something like that.) Space is the female supportive structure birthing all experience; she is the ground of being. Being in that space is the male projectile, making love to the Void. If you reject your lover, there cometh hurt!

So, it is not "either/or" for me when I read about different ideas about relative existence. It is quite beyond that! When I read the Joy of Satan, I can understand it's perspective, but it does not sway me in the least. When I read about Solomon's magick, I understand it from that perspective, too. But, I don't believe it is Truth. Truth is beyond such ideas. Demonic or angelic interactions are only relative relationships. I don't expect to squeeze the mystery of the universe out of either of them. That is something that I must do for myself through integration... which is all about LOVE, not making war.
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