Treating Spirits with respect.

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Treating Spirits with respect.

Postby BNNHKDSH » Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:35 pm

I've been reading some Duquette and his interactions with Goetic demons. Very entertaining reads!
Question: Why are goetic demons dealt with so harshly, with threats of punishment and destruction? If their evolution is tied to mine and that above me tied to mine own, then why the threats? I despise the xian teachings and BS (belief system :P) how it is filled with threats of punishment if performance demands are not met. I don't believe that is the way to motivate others. Am I coming across as a softy? My feeling is that when you emanate that source of authority, there is no need to make threats of destruction and burning sigils up.
what say you?
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Re: Treating Spirits with respect.

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:28 pm

BNNHKDSH wrote:IQuestion: Why are goetic demons dealt with so harshly, with threats of punishment and destruction?

Because the system evolved out of an impverished and harsh Medieval environment governed by a pain-and-punishment minded church, by suppressed and starving people who consciously wanted some way out of the rat hole of their lives and, either consciously or unconsciously, were quite willing to abuse, humiliate, threaten, torture, and punish any poor thing they could just as they felt they were being abused, humiliated, threatened, tortured, and punished in their own lives.

How do I know this? Because of the system itself. Bullies always are the results of bullying. Abusers arise out of abuse. It's a sick system from a sick time. Unfortunately, the spirits are real, and have been on the receiving end of all of this for centuries!

I despise the xian teachings and BS (belief system :P) how it is filled with threats of punishment if performance demands are not met

You do understand, don't you, that Goetia is an inherently Christian system of magick that necessarily embodies things you say you despite about it?
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Postby Aum418 » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:08 pm

I disagree. Its how you have to deal with them. Its not disrespectful - its firm.

"Fear not the Spirits, but be firm and courteous with them; for thou hast no right to despise or revile them; and this too may lead thee astray. Command and banish them, curse them by the Great Names if need be; but neither mock nor revile them, for so assuredly wilt thou be lead into error."
-Liber Librae

This seems like a much more mature approach (especially than saying that the entire system of the Goetia is a product of people being bullies... which seems entirely over-generalized and un-supportable).

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Postby Froclown » Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:24 pm

If a child calls his imaginary friend a name, he thereby calls himself the name. To hurt the doll is to hurt an aspect of oneself.

It is wise to treat the spirit as a voodoo doll of ones psyche.

In a sense enlightenment partly means making the entire world, especially all other people voodoo dolls that represent oneself. Thus to hurt the tiniest insect is to kill a part of oneself.

Truthfully Are other people not the spirits of the material earth, just as spirits are the people of the astral plane?
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:30 pm

aum418 wrote:I disagree. Its how you have to deal with them. Its not disrespectful - its firm.

I was speaking, of course, of taking every detail of The Goetia literally, as likely was done in Medieval times.

I am also speaking from a position of these being objective beings so that the spirit of a particular name that has tortured and abused by human magicians for several centuries is exactly the same one you're going to be calling into your triangle. You are bringing a ferociously abused child into your house for the evening and should expect certain pathological behaviors as the normal course of thing.

"Fear not the Spirits, but be firm and courteous with them; for thou hast no right to despise or revile them; and this too may lead thee astray. Command and banish them, curse them by the Great Names if need be; but neither mock nor revile them, for so assuredly wilt thou be lead into error."

Agreed completely! (Of course, this doesn't limit the spirits, or the method of dealing with them, to The Goetia per se.)

This seems like a much more mature approach (especially than saying that the entire system of the Goetia is a product of people being bullies... which seems entirely over-generalized and un-supportable).

Remember, I'm not talking about 21st Century magicians. I'm saying the damage was already done in the 15th. On its face, the system arose out of punishment-minded Medieval Christianity as interpreted in the most impoverished and downtrodden part of the European population of that time.

I get the disagreement and admittedly was choosing words to push the envelope.
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Postby luxinhominefactum » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:30 am

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

while it's certainly correct that the goetia was a product of it's aeon, the workings therein are Quite easy to update. i personally would suggest thinking about the difference between an osirian, self-sacrificial magician and a priest or priestess of nuit and ra-hoor-kuit, and then change the wording of the oaths and so on accordingly.

as far as the demons themselves go, it's our role as magicians to dominate them utterly, such that they no longer control our actions but function when called and under will.

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:40 am

luxinhominefactum wrote:as far as the demons themselves go, it's our role as magicians to dominate them utterly, such that they no longer control our actions but function when called and under will.

If they are objective beings, then it is our role, as magicians, to contribute to their following their own Will. However, I agree, per your last phrase, that we have to control our own actions regardless.
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Postby Froclown » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:23 pm

Though it is true we should yolk the spirits to our WILL, I do not think is wise to misuse them. Thelema at its heart means using things properly according to their nature.

Forcing a spirit to go against its nature, is what leads in complexes in psychology and other problems in life.

I thing a better way of dealing with spirits is to learn more about them, ask them to describe themselves, and discuss your WILL with them. Find a way in which they can contribute their nature to your WILL, such that you need not bind and repress them, or force them into acts contrary to their nature.

Their is no need for a Sacrifice of WILL on either side, there is little or no give and take, the Expression of your own WILL and the WILL of the spirit can co-exist, that is the Essence of THELEMA.

Also ones dealings with the spirits, can be practice with ones dealings with other people, in that subordinates can be treated as Spirits, each put to good use according to his unique nature (WILL).

Dealings with Angels and invocation, can be used as practice when dealing with superiors.

I like to think of people as just the spirits that are found in the material level of the astral planes.
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Postby Rey De Lupos » Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:23 pm

R-E-S-P-E-C-T... THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS TO ME.... [grin]

It seems to me 'common sense' to grant all living [sentient] creation a common level of respect and honor for its state of being. I think in regards to 'intelligent beings' -- if you treat them with intelligence and respect the results are more likely to be comradeship, fraternity and coorperation.

Beating, thrashing, maligning a spirit seems to address a natural course of events which is less than satisfactory to the would-be Goetic operator.

[grin]

Listen to your 'intuition' -- it will align you appropriately to any Spirit -- if your are truly LISTENING. [ please check your Ego at the Door]
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Postby redd fezz » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:09 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
luxinhominefactum wrote:as far as the demons themselves go, it's our role as magicians to dominate them utterly, such that they no longer control our actions but function when called and under will.

If they are objective beings, then it is our role, as magicians, to contribute to their following their own Will. However, I agree, per your last phrase, that we have to control our own actions regardless.

While Jim certainly doesn't need me to back up his opinions, I notice what he says on this issue of True Will throughout these forums corresponds perfectly with all of Crowley's comments on the issue. Not just a comment here or there, but the full context of Crowley's writings regarding True Will.

As long as every act of ours tends toward self-preservation and circles around our own personal interests, all protestations against the 'ego' are meaningless. It would be truer to admit we are obsessed by the 'ego' or possessed by it. That is not True Will. It's all well and good on the free will train-ride to discovering it, but let's not confuse the two.

A person's True Will becomes clearer the more he understands "universal law" which is not set in stone by some creator deity, but is the ephemeral agreement of living circumstance which implies service to other more than service to self. The Great White Brotherhood Crowley spoke of was not a bunch of selfish pricks.

Like a musician is liberated and finds ultimate freedom of expression when he discovers the laws of music, so too is the individual finally liberated when he discovers the laws of life. Rather than stumbling through a lot of harsh, unpleasant noise, he is freed to play in HARMONY with his peers, free to make endless strokes of perfection on his instrument.

It seems to me that "utterly dominating" possibly malicious spirits, you are not utterly dominating anything. They're making you dance to their little tune (a war dance, a fightin' song) and laughing while you think you're in "control."
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Postby Rey De Lupos » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:01 am

Red Fezz wrote:

QUOTE OF THE DEI:

A person's True Will becomes clearer the more he understands "universal law" which is not set in stone by some creator deity, but is the ephemeral agreement of living circumstance which implies service to other more than service to self. The Great White Brotherhood Crowley spoke of was not a bunch of selfish pricks.

An excellent post, Red. I also love what you state so succinctly in this quote.
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Postby redd fezz » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:24 pm

Thanks!

I've been meaning to ask someone someday, why "DEI" in "QUOTE OF THE DEI?" I see it used often on the pfc-list, etc. It's always bugged me that I don't know what it means, but somehow never enough to ask. :lol:
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Postby luxinhominefactum » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:29 am

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

this has turned into a really interesting thread Really fast!

red fezz wrote:It seems to me that "utterly dominating" possibly malicious spirits, you are not utterly dominating anything. They're making you dance to their little tune (a war dance, a fightin' song) and laughing while you think you're in "control."


i couldn't disagree more! hooray! :lol:

i'd make the argument that there's no such thing as a malicious spirit. for one thing "If he be a King, thou canst not hurt him!" on another plane, any "bad feeling" that a "demon" produces within you is strictly an issue with your khu - you're seeing something within yourself that you don't want to see. after all, we're each the center of our own universe, and there is no part of us that is not part of the gods.

and after all, a demon is just a god acting out of turn ;)

the issue of domination is a simple one, in my view. in the previous aeon, the demons were Blamed for the incorrect actions that mankind made. "the devil made me do it" sort of thing, and the appeal was made to whatever dying god you want to "save" you from same. in the aeon of horus, it's up to each of us to bring ourselves Fully under our own control.

this has a lot to do with the structure of "the sacred magic of abra-melin" the mage and how it needs to be re-worked for reasonable use today. in abra-melin's aeon, the Great Work had to be accomplished First before you could dominate the demons. the way i see it, in the new aeon it's necessary to dominate the demons - those parts of ourselves that we reject fully into our khu and under our complete domination and control. (It is a lie, this folly against self!)

i will say that it's important to make a distinction between domination and a domineering attitude. there's no reason whatsoever to be an {***hole} about it. however, the demons are ours to command - i've found the best way is to approach them as secure in our royalty. there's no question that an order will be obeyed - it's our nature to be kings, after all.

If they are objective beings, then it is our role, as magicians, to contribute to their following their own Will.


again, i totally disagree! :D

"thou hast no right but to do thy will!"

your concept strikes me as self-sacrificing. it's not our role in this aeon to die that others be saved. all we do is our will. for some of us, serving is part of our will but it's important to be Very careful with that, after all - "the slaves shall serve"

on another plane, why would a star need another to prop them up? that kind of relationship would skirt on the vampiric, in my view, and should be avoided.

the ephemeral agreement of living circumstance which implies service to other more than service to self. The Great White Brotherhood Crowley spoke of was not a bunch of selfish pricks.


i would argue that all aspects of the selfish nature are of hadit.

perhaps you can explain how this attitude can be anything other than christist.

Like a musician is liberated and finds ultimate freedom of expression when he discovers the laws of music, so too is the individual finally liberated when he discovers the laws of life.


ah! now you're talking about restriction unto babalon, which is a very different cup of meat Indeed! the laws of music are necessary to our enjoyment of them - although they are hardly set in stone. to slightly misquote a phrase, the chinese can not help but think the octave has five tones. we have twelve, the hindu has some twenty odd. it's important to keep in mind that these laws are totally arbritary and can be discarded in an instant!

as for the laws of life - "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt."

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:32 am

luxinhominefactum wrote:
If they are objective beings, then it is our role, as magicians, to contribute to their following their own Will.

again, i totally disagree! :D

"thou hast no right but to do thy will!"

Yes. And inherent in the definition of that is that it is not one's True Will if it is in conflict with another's True Will.

your concept strikes me as self-sacrificing.

OK, I hear that. - It doesn't strike me that way at all. To me, it's just another guage on the dashboard or navigating traffic on the road: Witnessing (at multiple levels, dependingon capacity) the proper way of another is one of the most important devices we have for seeing our own way.

it's not our role in this aeon to die that others be saved.

Agreed completely. (Except, of course, for those for whom that's their Will - I make allowance for all such possibilities.)

all we do is our will.

Or, actually, our Will. Agreed completely. But we're limiting ourself to a Hadit-only perspective (isolated Star running its course), and depriving ourselves of the Nuit experience unless we strive to be simultaneously mindful of the whole.
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Postby luxinhominefactum » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:10 am

Yes. And inherent in the definition of that is that it is not one's True Will if it is in conflict with another's True Will.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

i find that particular point Inarguable :)

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Postby redd fezz » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:30 pm

I just sort of feel that if you continually cop to the "everything we do is our Will" thing then you will never progress or need to progress beyond the limited perspective you were born with. What impetus is there to go beyond your daily urges if you can just casually justify anything by saying "all I do is my Will!" Meanwhile, Crowley went to great lengths to [abstractly] point out the difference between "whatever you feel like doing" and "True Will." The point is to realize your True Will, not to act according to your desires secure in the knowledge that whatever you do is your Will... Crowley said you have no right but to do thy Will but he also pointed out that not everything is an act of True Will. Doing whatever and believing in any case it's an expression of your True Will, while remaining oblivious to what the View from that perspective of your True Will actually is would miss the point entirely. Right?
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Postby Froclown » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:56 pm

I think Crowley said TRUE WILLs are not in conflict with the dynamic of the universal.

The WILL of a lion to rip a Gazelle to bits, does not indicate that the Gazelle has a WILL to be ripped to bits.

But is a universal sense it is a necessary part of being a Gazelle that one aspect of that life is no be potential food for lions.

It is also an essential aspect af being a lion that it potentially eat Gazelle.

If the Lion feels sorry for the Gazelle and refuses to eat, it will die. If the Gazelle feel sorry for the lion then they may sacrifice themselves to the lion, and here we have the beginnings of an Osiris Aeon cult.

If the weak are given to the lion out of fear, we have an Isis cult.

If both Lion and Gazelle accepts who he is, and acts without fear or pity, the Gazelle running fearlessly through the savanna, chancing death but not meeting it with anxiety, for it is only with respectful indifference to the risks that the beast hops and plays feely.

The Lion must stalk and hunt, take pleasure fully in the kill, engorge itself on the flesh of his prey, without remorse. For if the Lion despises himself, thinks his hunting a Sin, weeps for his kill, then he is an example of the weak and down trodden that are to be stomped down. He would be nothing but a depressed, neurotic, self-hating mess. Not unlike the casualties of Osiris's religions.

Now, both hunter and prey have a true WILL, and each takes joy in his WILL. Though they may fight in the flesh, each if free in spirit.

hunter-prey Master-slave same diff.
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Postby redd fezz » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:20 am

Froclown, could you make your point using human examples? I'm not sure the hunter-prey / master-slave relationship connection your making is very clear.

From your perspective, it seems to me that you would believe Crowley's view of True Will would have supported Hitler's actions as well as Hitler's defeat and would support the current "war on terror" as well as, paradoxically, the terrorists who target their prey, the general populace, as a proxy attack on their real prey, the governments of the general populace. It seems you would believe Crowley endorsed any selfish act or selfless act; essentially anything whatsoever.

It would be convenient, then, if you would use these examples of Hitler, War On Terror, Terrorism and General Populace to clarify your point in detail. These are situations which define human freedom of choice and self-awareness we can apply more sensibly to the discussion than the instinctual behavior of gazelles and lions, which is not the experience of anyone here, as we are all human beings.
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Postby luxinhominefactum » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:08 pm

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

redd fezz wrote: I just sort of feel that if you continually cop to the "everything we do is our Will" thing then you will never progress or need to progress beyond the limited perspective you were born with.


read my post again. all we do is our will. when we're not doing our will, we're not really doing anything. we're failing to do.

What impetus is there to go beyond your daily urges if you can just casually justify anything by saying "all I do is my Will!"


the same impetus that makes us go into the temple every day when, in fact, everything we do is a magical act. it's often called "aspiration." perhaps you've heard of it ;)

i disagree that the gazelle/lion metaphor has any similarity to hitler or the war on terror.

in both cases, we had a situation where religions cursed in chapter three tear each other apart like scorpions in a bottle (remember, hitler was a roman christist.) it has no bearing on the discussion.

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Postby redd fezz » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:38 pm

luxinhominefactum wrote:read my post again. all we do is our will. when we're not doing our will, we're not really doing anything. we're failing to do.

Since you are putting it so simply, please explain further: if I want to make a sandwich but I also don't want to get up and do it at the moment, am I failing to do or am I doing my will?

What impetus is there to go beyond your daily urges if you can just casually justify anything by saying "all I do is my Will!"

the same impetus that makes us go into the temple every day when, in fact, everything we do is a magical act. it's often called "aspiration." perhaps you've heard of it ;)

Aspiration actually comes from the belief that there is something more which is obtainable. Thelema is a philosophy of life that aspires to more than "I do something because I want to." It is about the discovery of True Will. It is a system of spiritual evolution that goes beyond Darwin and Nietzche.

i disagree that the gazelle/lion metaphor has any similarity to hitler or the war on terror.

I disagree that the gazelle/lion metaphor has any relevance to human experience of free choice and self-awarenes implicit in the discussion of True Will.

in both cases, we had a situation where religions cursed in chapter three tear each other apart like scorpions in a bottle (remember, hitler was a roman christist.) it has no bearing on the discussion.

If you think the gazelle/lion metaphor has more baring on this discussion of True Will than actual human experience, consider the following...

Crowley actively opposed Hitler as much as Hitler opposed Thelema. Crowley shot animals for sport. I'm pretty sure he was opposed to shooting humans for sport.

If a lion is the perfect example of True Will, since lions are perfectly true to their lion-ness, then please explain how that exactly "works out" when two lions are fighting over the same gazelle. It reduces to absurdity in light of the following instruction:

"Every man has a right to fulfill his own will without being afraid that it may interfere with that of others; for if he is in his proper place, it is the fault of others if they interfere with him."

So, which lion is at fault here? Both are 'true will lions' yet both fighting over the same gazelle! :lol: If it is simply a matter of whichever wins, then you are just talking about "survival of the fittest." That's not Thelema. All the Aeonic propositions inherent in Thelema prove that this is not the point of Thelema. Because Crowley would not stand by and say, "Yep, that's The Law of Thelema!" if a new breed of religious fascism wiped out all the Thelemites and burned every last Book of The Law.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:05 pm

Redd Fezz wrote:If a lion is the perfect example of True Will, since lions are perfectly true to their lion-ness, then please explain how that exactly "works out" when two lions are fighting over the same gazelle.

In nature, that doesn't tend to be the case. Lions collaborate in bringing down the gazelle, and then take turns eating it.

I do think that, most of the time, cats are smarter than humans.

"Every man has a right to fulfill his own will without being afraid that it may interfere with that of others; for if he is in his proper place, it is the fault of others if they interfere with him."

"Right" is an interesting word. I defend it entirely. However, having the right to so act doesn't mean that it's always the most intelligent move. I still hold that most drivers keep track of whether they are in the right lane by noticing where the other cars are driving.
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Postby redd fezz » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:05 pm

Your definition of intelligence seems to be at odds with the literal definition, but I get your point. Though, I don't agree with it and hope it is more of a joke than for serious.

Your comment about car lanes is exactly what I'm thinking about. In my experience, it seems that discovering your True Will is about finding your rightful place within the "universal pattern," just as driving down the street is all about finding your right place in the traffic pattern. Your will might be to get to work faster, but that could be very at odds with your True Will if you wind up paralyzed due to utterly stupid driving choices.

At the same time, your "rightful place" is always wherever you are because your experience does always manifest from the source of your potentiality, your "secret sun." But, discovering your True Will is clicking into what works for you, ultimately, not in the moment. According to Crowley, one person's True Will can never interfere with another's. So, calling up a spirit and demanding it do your bidding lest you torture it seems, to me, about as wise as driving down the wrong side of the street.
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Postby Froclown » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:58 pm

Doing your WILL means just that in is your own WILL, I can not say what is right or wrong.

So long as Hitler was being the best Hitler he could be, and not acting out of fear, guilt, self-loathing, etc. Then He was True to himself, his WILL was True.

If you hold yourself back, then your WILL falls short of its mark. If you do what you are told is the moral thing to do, and deny your "beastly" nature to act against the moral rules, then you are aiming at the MARK of morality, thus your actions are not TRUE to your WILL.

When an arrow hits its mark, then your aim was True, the arrow was true to its target.

If ones aim is distracted by another target, the arrow is not true to its target.

If one fears it is wrong morally to hit the target, say its a child of a wolf cub, so one pulls the bow to half tension, the arrow will fall short. and is not TRUE to its Target.

TRUE WILL, is like a true arrow.

Success is thy proof.

If Will stops to ask why...

Then in power weakness.

Thelema calls us to be potent, focused, undistracted and not watered down by sentiment and morality.

You want a human example, read Atlas Shrugged.

The whole book is about the TRUE WILL of people who run business, and how liberal notions of equality that make powerful men work at lower capacity in the name of common good, destroy the human spirit and make a mess of progress.
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Postby redd fezz » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:23 pm

Let me repeat myself, friend: According to Crowley, one person's True Will can never interfere with another's.

So, Hitler's failure and Crowley's opposition of the man is proof he wasn't following his True Will. The funny thing about thinking you know your True Will before you actually do is how easy it is to screw up.

A good checklist would be:
1. How many beings oppose my view?
2. How logical is that opposition?
3. Does it appear I am right?
4. Am I successful?
5. Does it appear I will be?

In Hitler's case, it probably did.

... but then, if you're Hitler...

guess what?


YES, THAT'S RIGHT:

Image

YOU'RE A FOCKING DOUCHEBAG! SURPRISE! (Not YOU, I mean HITLER)

It's easy to figure out why if you go through the above checklist. There's no effing way he could be following his True Will because there's no way it was the True Will of the rest of the races on earth to be killed and/or enslaved. But, Thelema isn't really for insane people or megalomaniacs.
"I have never grown out of the infantile belief that the universe was made for me to suck." – Aleister Crowley
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Postby Froclown » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:04 am

megalomania itself is a sign that one does not know ones proper limits.

It seem s to me that Hitlers proper place was as an artist, but this was denied to him, and his political career was nothing but a tantrum in responce to his failed art.

Thus, it was not his WILL to be Fuhrer, but that was like a strong pull of the bow, aimed at a target that was not properly his own.

Hitler seemed like a very depressed and self loathing man, this is the proof he was not following his WILL. Where as a proud and joyous Sadist like De Sade or Vlad Tepis, it seems was TRUE to his nature and WILL.
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