Order and Value of The English Alphabet

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Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby mark0987 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:25 pm

93,

I was reading a book called, 'The Serpent Tongue', in which the authors claim to have found the key to the cipher in Liber Legis to develop a system of English Qabalah. Now I want to know if anyone else has an opinion?

And by that I mean anyone with more experience than me. I personally don't like it. No one knows if the cipher is for the English qabalah, whilst such a system could be developed I believe there would be a lot more 'gematrial connections' than the proposed system. Basically should I just focus on Greek and Hebrew Qabalah? Or should I also explore English qabalah? Or would this be a waste of my time?

93's.
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:29 pm

mark0987 wrote:I was reading a book called, 'The Serpent Tongue', in which the authors claim to have found the key to the cipher in Liber Legis to develop a system of English Qabalah.

Another one?

Now I want to know if anyone else has an opinion?

Yes. Hundreds of people have an opinion. Maybe thousands. (And most of them are different opinions.)

BTW, there are multiple threads on this around the forum somewhere.
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby mark0987 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:32 pm

Yes. Hundreds of people have an opinion. Maybe thousands. (And most of them are different opinions.)

BTW, there are multiple threads on this around the forum somewhere.

Thank you Jim I shall search the forums now, different opinions is what I like.

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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Inox » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:08 pm

The book in question was written by Jake Stratton-Kent, with a foreword by Lon Milo DuQuette. Of the book, Mr. DuQuette says, "After I read it for the first time, I wrote Jake and told him 'It's so clean, it squeaks!'"

Jake Stratton-Kent makes some very convincing arguments, & I definitely feel it's worth a read, personally. Hadean Press has the book, I believe.
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby mark0987 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:47 pm

93,

A friend who knew my obsession (in a healthy, I like his books kinda way) with Lon DuQuette told me that he wrote the foreword and that's the reason I borrowed the book. I shall continue reading however I have got to say I thought if the cipher was truly thought to have been cracked most Thelemites would know about it. But then again the cipher could have multiple uses.....

I truly do hope I find value in it, I have searched the forums and the theories of other people just aren't satisfactory (for me). I am still gong to stick with Hebrew and Greek as 'main forms' though.

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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby HRUMACHIS » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:41 am

93,

You can study the cipher without a Qabalah. The words, letters, and verse numbers are all based on Thelemic keys, as they must necessarily be by the structural underpinnings of the universe. Count ever letter, every word, backwards and forwards, and you will find the Keys. It is unmistakable, and since it is not based on a Qabalah, numbers are numbers and cannot be denied. Once certain Keys are found, use Qabalah on the groupings - Greek, EQ, and Hebrew. Crowley also said Arabic fits in. Then look for other Keys. Also when counting, the manuscript page breaks matter as you will see, as do the number of words and letters on a page. The number of times words are used - there are certain keywords there as well. The verse numbers are Keys, when studying the cipher you must use the absolute verse number - e.g. AL II.1 is verse 67. Again - verse indexing forward and backward - same for page numbers, absolute indexing versus the number written on the manuscript. Some verses can be combined based on their number to form Keys, and it means they go together. Once you find how to solve the verses, there are some other things you need to do around geometry to find the formulas and arcana. Also the Atu are needed for some verses, mapping paths, Hebrew, and Atu number as appropriate - this is why the Atu are also referred to as Keys. The literary Keys in Liber Aleph are also needed, and some of those contain other ciphers, but still use Thelemic Keys. Finally, there are some Keys that Crowley did not publish. But study enough and you will find them. Each spell is hidden in a different way, but all make use of these basic techniques and Keys. There is technology and arcana in here, that if ruling class on this planet really understood this Book, would have been outlawed worldwide - hence the need for the extraordinary cipher, and of course the nature of the material.

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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby mark0987 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:48 am

93,

You've really got me interested now.....I was only studying English qabalah because it would be easier when it comes to gematria. As for finding keys in Liber Legis I am not knowledgeable enough yet but I hope one day to be so, in magick without tears Crowley believed study of the book was the most important thing.

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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Uni_Verse » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:19 pm

An important aspect is that each person should be developing their own personal understanding of Qabalah.

I have something of a personal "order and value" that works great in developing my own understanding.
Some times I share those results on the forum, my methodology left unspoken (if hinted).
Perhaps in the future, after years of working with it, I shall have some "general truths" to offer

If it all ready exists, perhaps a person or small number of individuals can re-discover it.
Otherwise I see it as a more communal effort, a building of shared meaning.
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Swamiji » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:43 pm

I've never found a version of English gematria that I found truly satisfying... not even my own.

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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Miles » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:06 am

I use this one:

A = 0 = Air = 0 The Fool
B = 1 = Mercury = I The Magus
C = 3 = Luna = II The Priestess
D = 5 = Venus = III The Empress
E = 0 = Earth = The Disks
F = 7 = Aquarius = XVII The Star
G = 9 = Taurus = V The Hierophant
H = 11 = Gemini = VI The Lovers
I = 0 = Fire = The Wands
J = 13 = Cancer = VII The CHariot
K = 15 = Libra = VIII Adjustment
L = 17 = Virgo = IX The Hermit
M = 19 = Jupiter = X Fortune
N = 21 = Leo = XI Lust
0 = 0 = Spirit = The Trumps
P = 23 = Water = XII The Hanged Man
Q = 25 = Scorpio = XIII Death
R = 27 = Sagittarius = XIV Art
S = 29 = Capricorn = XV The Devil
T = 31 = Mars = XVI The Tower
U = 0 = Water = The Cups
V = 33 = Aries = IV The Emperor
W = 35 = Pisces = XVIII The Moon
X = 37 = Sol = XIX The Sun
Y = 39 = Fire = XX The Aeon
Z = 41 = Saturn = XXI The Universe

In this cipher, NOTHING = 93.
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby mark0987 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:34 am

93,

I gave up with EQ. The hebrew and greek just seemed more deserving of my time and study. However I don't believe I have seen this arrangement before.

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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Starry Soul » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:44 am

I don't think it's a matter of giving up so much as it's a matter of waiting. ;P
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Starry Soul » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:59 am

I think it will naturally come out.
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Mephisto » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:40 am

The English Order:

A:1
B:2
C:3
D:4
E:4
F:5
G:6
H:7
I:8
J:9
K:10
L:20
M:30
N:40
O:50
P:60
Q:70
R:80
S:90
T:100
U:200
V:300
W:400
X:500
Y:600
Z:700

This is the same format that is used with other Holy Alphabets. It is a simple and elegant system, and harmonious with that of prior Aeons. Albeit, now the Holy Alphabet is English and the others useless. All this babble about ancient "holy books" is rubbish, in the same way that one cannot use the rudimentary physics required to operate a steam engine to power a space probe.
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Archaeus » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:50 am

Mephisto wrote:The English Order:

A:1
B:2
C:3
D:4
E:4
F:5
G:6
H:7
I:8
J:9
K:10
L:20
M:30
N:40
O:50
P:60
Q:70
R:80
S:90
T:100
U:200
V:300
W:400
X:500
Y:600
Z:700

This is the same format that is used with other Holy Alphabets. It is a simple and elegant system, and harmonious with that of prior Aeons. Albeit, now the Holy Alphabet is English and the others useless. All this babble about ancient "holy books" is rubbish, in the same way that one cannot use the rudimentary physics required to operate a steam engine to power a space probe.


Why is 4 attributed to both D and E? Wouldn't it be simpler to just have one letter per number, that way you could go up to 800?
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Starry Soul » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:06 am

Mephisto wrote:This is the same format that is used with other Holy Alphabets. (...)

Come on, do you really think it would be that easy? :D

Also, there's what Archaeus noted, and anyway, I'm sure many have tried this format and similar ones, myself included, and have found it unsatisfactory.

As an additional note: order and value seems to imply there's another, "correct" order of the alphabet, so presumably just attributing the values won't cut it.
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Mephisto » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:51 pm

Starry Soul wrote:Come on, do you really think it would be that easy? :D


Shhh. Let them ponder. :wink: :D

I think it's safe to say we're all still working on this one.
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby wanderer-exile » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:51 am

"Thou shalt obtain the order & value of the English Alphabet; thou shalt find new symbols to attribute them unto." II:55

I've often wondered in the "new symbols" could be the International Phonetics Alphabet.
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Re: Order and Value of The English Alphabet

Postby Al-Shariyf » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:57 am

mark0987 wrote:93,

I was reading a book called, 'The Serpent Tongue', in which the authors claim to have found the key to the cipher in Liber Legis to develop a system of English Qabalah. Now I want to know if anyone else has an opinion? .


JSK did not find the key to the cipher. The person that claimed to find the key to the cipher was Jim Lees. Jake happened to join Jim's group of practitioners around the time the foundational work of the E.'.Q.'. commenced.

mark0987 wrote:And by that I mean anyone with more experience than me.

I don't how much experience you have so it may be the case that you have more than me but I will offer my opinion based on my very limited experience with it: I wouldn't go as far to agree that it is THEE ONE E.'.Q.'. system but it's workable without having to do a lot of (or any for that matter) finagling. I'm comfortable adopting it as my go-to system for English Qabalistic analysis when I need to.

Why I am comfortable using it as my go-to for English Qabalistic analysis is because I hold the point of view that transliterating an English word into it's Greek, Latin or Hebrew equivalent a). leaves a lot of room for error and b). seems unnecessary. If I'm working with English why use another language?

mark0987 wrote:I personally don't like it. No one knows if the cipher is for the English qabalah, whilst such a system could be developed I believe there would be a lot more 'gematrial connections' than the proposed system


I'm not sure what you mean by 'Gematrial Connections' but what wasn't emphasized in "The Serpent Tongue" that is highly emphasized in "The Magical Language of the Book of the Law" by Cath Thompson (Jim Lees' literary executor and also a member of the group of people that developed this system) is that the ultimate test of the veracity of your analysis lies in the ability of a given number to be examined in multiple religions/philosophies/worldviews etc. and yield a consistent, coherent and harmonious chain of ideas. If this is what you mean or are pointing to when you say "Gematrial Connections" then you may want to pick up Cath's book and test the full system for yourself.

mark0987 wrote:Basically should I just focus on Greek and Hebrew Qabalah? Or should I also explore English qabalah? Or would this be a waste of my time?

93's.


That is something you will have to decide for yourself. Given that the Hebrew Qabalah is much more widely accepted then perhaps you should start there and move on to another language when you have some mastery of it.
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