The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

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The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby Lykathea » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:12 pm

Hi friends,

Just thinking about Liber Trigrammaton brought me to thinking about the letters in this liber, as listed here: http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0027.html. I am curious as to how to use the English or Latin letters this way, maybe as two-letter combinations in the context of I Ching hexagrams? Has anyone here played around with this, or know how to start working with this "Latin qabalah"?
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:16 pm

Lykathea wrote:Just thinking about Liber Trigrammaton brought me to thinking about the letters in this liber, as listed here: http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0027.html.

Let's be clear: Those letters are not "in" Liber Trigrammaton, nor part of it. That is, they were not part of the original writing of this Class A document on December 14, 1907.

Crowley later jotted some letters in the margin of one of his copies of the book, trying to work out the ideas. He abandoned that line of thought and never developed it. (I have gazillions of margin jottings - kept and thrown away - and all sorts of scrawls in books I've owned over the years. Questions like this remind me that I need to throw those books away before I die <g>.)
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby Lykathea » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:28 pm

Lol. Just curious about this - has anyone you know worked with this half-formed letter system in any way, or is it in your opinion totally not worth pursuing?
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:44 pm

I don't think there's anything to it at all.

The only people I know who have tried to do anything with it are the NAEQ people... and since I can't say anything nice about their work, I won't say anything at all.
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby sk4p » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:29 am

Jim, your mention of NAEQ makes me ask. I've alluded elsewhere to my own "homegrown" English qabalah system; what is your view, or that of other published magi, on the discovery and use of such systems for one's own enlightenment?

I've read some of the bits from In the Continuum and Black Pearl on the Latin Qabalah Simplex, and it's definitely interesting, but it does have the "Latin vs. English" thing going on. So I myself feel hesistant to use LQS for English when I have a system which has given me insightful/inspirational results.

As you've mentioned somewhere (on HGAs' names, I believe), Sor. Meral always said you needed to validate your insights with further results, and I can certainly agree with that in principle. I guess the question is how thoroughly do we test/recheck the results of our discoveries before we start concluding that we're really on the right track, at least for ourselves.

(Every time I explain my EQ system, I always disclaim it by saying "This works for me, but I don't claim it is in any sense 'the right way' to do English Qabalah.")
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:40 am

sk4p wrote:what is your view, or that of other published magi, on the discovery and use of such systems for one's own enlightenment?

My view is that if that's the purpose, then it's relevant to you and to nobody else.

I've read some of the bits from In the Continuum and Black Pearl on the Latin Qabalah Simplex, and it's definitely interesting, but it does have the "Latin vs. English" thing going on. So I myself feel hesistant to use LQS for English when I have a system which has given me insightful/inspirational results.

Yes. It's for Latin :D

I guess the question is how thoroughly do we test/recheck the results of our discoveries before we start concluding that we're really on the right track, at least for ourselves.

If it's totally "for ourselves," then it's worth paying attention as soon as it grabs your attention. I think the big mistake in this (as in so many other things in occultism) is for concerning ourselves with whether something is "true," rather than recognizing that (independent of it being true) it's relevant.
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby sk4p » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:43 am

Well, I'd be lying if I didn't tell other people they should give it a try and see if it works for them too, but only when I provide enough background and say the proof is in the pudding; if one finds relevance in it, then one should run with it. I've also presented it on my website as an example of the sort of system one might work out for oneself, hopefully to inspire other people to go off in their own directions.

I appreciate your distinction between truth and relevance; that's one I think I will incorporate into my own phrasing. :D
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby Swamiji » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:49 pm

Completely unexpectedly for me (having eschewed all notions of the "english qabalah" for a very long time) I ended up unexpectedly being driven by some communications with my HGA to pursue this very question. One of my early conclusions was that it didn't make sense to follow the attributions Crowley made for the correspondence of the english alphabet to the trigrams of Liber Trigrammaton. I am currently working through a system that takes a much more straightforward approach: the first trigram (the three dots) is a kind of blank, and after that the letters go in order, ABCDEFG etc.

However, this is currently still very much a work in progress; it has mainly turned out to be a very interesting system for the creation of magical squares.

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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby ThelemicMage » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:00 am

Jim, can you give any references to where Crowley abandoned his letter assignments to Liber Trigrammaton?

I can't seem to find any..

just very interested in this right now. Any help is greatly appreciated.

:)
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:05 am

ThelemicMage wrote:Jim, can you give any references to where Crowley abandoned his letter assignments to Liber Trigrammaton?

Can you give me any reference to where he evefr did anything at all with them? The only record we even have of this is the marginalia in pencil in his copy of Thelema. I've never seen a thing beyond that one annotation.

He never published it. He never referenced it. No diary known to me ever makes a reference to it.

I also couldn't provide you with any citation that he ever abandoned the new form of the pentagram ritual that he wrote while riding a train through India (with jumpy, jerky reactions in the hand-writing). It's just that, other than having a copy of his handwritten original, there's never again mention of it anywhere.
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby ThelemicMage » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:07 am

sk4p wrote:Well, I'd be lying if I didn't tell other people they should give it a try and see if it works for them too, but only when I provide enough background and say the proof is in the pudding; if one finds relevance in it, then one should run with it. I've also presented it on my website as an example of the sort of system one might work out for oneself, hopefully to inspire other people to go off in their own directions.

I appreciate your distinction between truth and relevance; that's one I think I will incorporate into my own phrasing. :D

The following are lines 51 and 52 from Liber LXV, and I believe you may recognize some shimmer of truth in them regarding this very flow of ideas:

51: And V.V.V.V.V. answered and said: O my lord, my dove, my excellent one, how shall this word seem unto the children of men?
And He answered him: Not as thou canst see.
52: It is certain that every letter of this cipher hath some value; but who shall determine the value? For it varieth ever, according to the subtlety of Him that made it.

So it comes not down to just hidden messages from your Angel regarding the text you are ciphering, but the hidden connection between the Angel of the one who wrote what you are studying, and your own.

It's like Jim explained in that other thread about how everyone's True Will cannot interfere with another's, but must flow with the course of the storm with all the stars. Again, we recognize the eye is not as calm as once perceived, but things very recognizable from the macrocosm to the microcosm and from microcosm to microcosm thusly, are easier to see in the eye than in the vast hurricane that will become the stars blown into the storm and the ashes of the worlds blown by the great Lion our Beast after what some call the "Apocalypse".

Lap it up while you can. And learn to meditate in the rushing fire of the stars.
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby threefold31 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:13 pm

Dwtw

The establishment of a qabalah based on Liber Trigrammaton, and the fulfillment of Liber AL II:55, has been accomplished many years ago by R. Leo Gillis, whose massive work on the subject is titled The Book of Mutations. Basic details can be found at trigrammaton.com

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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby sozos » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:04 pm

threefold31 wrote:Dwtw

The establishment of a qabalah based on Liber Trigrammaton, and the fulfillment of Liber AL II:55, has been accomplished many years ago by R. Leo Gillis, whose massive work on the subject is titled The Book of Mutations. Basic details can be found at trigrammaton.com

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http://www.trigrammaton.com/

Looks interesting to me.

It's not NAEQ qabala.

(Here's some stuff I found that's I didn't see on the trigrammaton.com website)

In the Trigrammaton system, the English letter I is mapped to the number 1.
I is the only letter of the English alphabet formed by one straight vertical line,
as is the numeral 1.

L is mapped to the number 2. A straight vertical line, and then a second line to the right.

C, another unicursal letter, is mapped to the number 3.

Here's the mapping I'm inquiring into:

I:1; L:2, C:3, H:4; P:5; A:6; X:7; J:8; W:9; T:10; O:11; G:12; F:13;
E:14; R:15; S:16; Q:17; K:18; Y:19; Z:20; B:21; M:22; V:23; D:24; N:25; U:26

Here are a few things I've discovered:

AUMGN : 93
(6+26+22+12+25)

RA HOOR KHUIT : 121 (11 x 11)
(15+6 4+11+11+15 18+4+26+1+10)

31 is a key to this gematria as well. 2 x 31 = 62
NUIT (25+26+1+10) : 62

I'll post more about this if it's helpful.
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Re: The English letters in Liber Trigrammaton

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:18 pm

Love is the law, love under will.
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