Qliphoth and Kenneth Grant

[milkBoxx]

So, I decided to take a gander at Kenneth Grant, I have to say IMHO, he sounds insane.
It's as if he equates Qliphothic ideals with ideals that are the very antithesis of that concept.
Although, Qliphoth are to be explored and conquered, he makes them sound like they are to be exalted in the
Great Work. I also notice he draws parallels in a reckless fashion, claiming Choronzon is equated to the God Neptune.
Neptune was male, and Choronzon is generally believed to be female in nature from my understanding. Many more erroneous examples can
be found in his writings, but you have to look for yourself. Albeit, he certainly has gall to make these claims.
To me, the gospel this man preaches speaks of the Black Brothers and 'confusion''.
This was just my take on what I read (Night Side of Eden).

I would like to know what others have to say about this man and his writings.

Cheers,

Ian

93/93

[gmugmble]

Your take seems basically correct to me.
In his favor, I'll say that Grant wrote some great creepy fiction that I can recommend, if you're into that genre. Also his non-fiction can be entertaining too, if read as fiction.
(2¢)

[Macsen Melinydd]

My take on Grant is that he was drawing attention to a fundamental confusion abound in the western esoteric world as a whole, especially after the death of Crowley, and delving into what was considered taboo at the time simply because it was taboo. He seemed to enjoy the occult for its own sake.
The 'history' he presents is often quite wrong, but I am sure he knew that. He said what he said to produce certain effects in the people who read it. He expects a certain discerning intelligence in the people reading his books, so he takes liberty with objective fact to prove subjective points.
I haven't read all too much of his work, so I'm not sure if his sanity stayed intact by the end of his career(he died just last year), but other writers(like Blair MacKenzie Blake and Soror Nema) whom I do respect were inspired by a lot of what Grant was about, namely: exploring the unexplored. And aliens, hahaha.
There's my 2¢.

[milkBoxx]

Funny you bring up BMB! I actually met him about two months ago, and spoke with him for quite awhile.
He's a really nice guy!

[Macsen Melinydd]

Funny you bring up BMB! I actually met him about two months ago, and spoke with him for quite awhile.
He's a really nice guy!

Blair is great.; a subtle writer and a very open-minded man, with a wide education in the occult. I love his books, especially IJYNX, which actually begins with a quote from a letter Grant sent him after Blair had him read his book--assuming you haven't read it and didn't know that. And if you have, what'd ya think?
Anyway, what I wouldn't do to have the opportunity to sit down with the guy... You lucky sh*t

[Iamus]

I'd say insanity mixed with a heavy dose of pretension, especially in his needlessly obscure (and often quite poor) vocabulary choices.

Looks to me like BMB might suffer from this vocabulary problem as well. The back cover of Ijynx alone contains the phrases: "ritually-machined hyperdimensions of consciousness", " the alchemical entelechy of the dead" as well as "anti-apotropaic".

Knowing her connection with Grant, I was a bit nevervous when I first picked up Nema's Maat Magick, but found it refreshingly clear and down to earth.

[Macsen Melinydd]

Looks to me like BMB might suffer from this vocabulary problem as well. The back cover of Ijynx alone contains the phrases: "ritually-machined hyperdimensions of consciousness", " the alchemical entelechy of the dead" as well as "anti-apotropaic".

You could say so. I find it a fun and fluid use of language, and the book itself contains some very sumptuous poetry. It gets the point across, does it not? Either way, some people just really love forming words together for their own sake, in the honorable tradition of Dr. Seuss; "Write, & find ecstasy in writing!".
I'm defending BMB more than Grant here, but it can go both ways. As I've said, I haven't read enough of Grant's later work to give anything more than impressions.

Knowing her connection with Grant, I was a bit nevervous when I first picked up Nema's Maat Magick, but found it refreshingly clear and down to earth.

Agreed, a very solid feminine take on Thelema, regardless of the whole "Aeon of Maat" deal. Nema remains one of my favorite Thelemites to interact with.

[milkBoxx]

Yeah, I met BMB down in Studio City, CA. Really nice guy. I wasn't expecting to meet him really...I guess it was just fate!

[Iamus]

Agreed, a very solid feminine take on Thelema, regardless of the whole "Aeon of Maat" deal. Nema remains one of my favorite Thelemites to interact with.

I wonder if Nema wasn't primed by Grant's writings to see Liber Pennae Penumbra as announcing the the dual current/AEon. Ignoring her interpretation, it seems to me that the work is a vision of a coming AEon, but one that's is firmly rooted in the perspective of the current AEon. That would make it not totally disimilar from the the Apocalypse of John under the view that that work is actually a vision of the AEon of Horus, but seen from an Osirian perspective. Obviously Pennae Penumbra doesn't see the AEon of Maat as armageddon; similarly there's no anti-Horus parallel to the way the Beast was seen as the anti-Christ.

Hmm, to get a little Hegelian (but hopefully not too far off topic) it's interesting to think that each AEon would have not only its own world view and its own view on the previous and future AEons, but it's own view on what an AEon is and what it means for a new AEon to replace an older one. In the AEon of Osiris, AEonic change was bad. It was the end of the world. The AEon of Horus sees AEonic change as part of a cycle and accepts that it will not last forever and that when it is replaced, it will not be the end of the world or takeover by the devil or anything like that. If I'm on to something there, that would be be further proof that Nema's work is squarely within the current AEon, because it's view on AEons is essentially the same as that presented in Thelemic literature. I wonder if that sheds any light on Grant. Maybe someone more familiar with his work could comment. What if he's so caught up in the idea that new AEons/currents are a good thing that he's tried to force the process and leap beyond the AEon of Horus less than a century after its inauguration?

[Jim Eshelman]

Don't forget that, as Horus is the Hierophant of the present aeon, Maat is its Hiereus.

[Iamus]

Don't forget that, as Horus is the Hierophant of the present aeon, Maat is its Hiereus.

I was never sure how far to take the analogy the HOGD officers, but after a little research (some of it on these boards) it looks quite profitable. Thanks.

Would you have a kind of waxing in power or influence where a god starts off in the Hegemon position and begins to exert some kind of influence over the planet and then in the next AEon this increases as the god assumes the offce of Hiereus, and then finally coming to dominance when they become Hierophant?

If that's right, then does the fact that Maat assumed the role of Hiereus in 1904 explain why a number of magicians (Jones, Grant, Nema, etc.) have felt that there is a Maatian "current" (I've never liked that term for some reason) running beneath the dominant one of Horus?

It's really interesting to think that this "discovery" of the dual current is really just something that should have been obvious from examination of the HOGD officer structure.

[Jim Eshelman]

Would you have a kind of waxing in power or influence where a god starts off in the Hegemon position and begins to exert some kind of influence over the planet and then in the next AEon this increases as the god assumes the offce of Hiereus, and then finally coming to dominance when they become Hierophant?

I suggest we sit around and watch for, say 4,000-6,000 years and observe <vbg>.

Consider the role of the Hegemon. Part of the duty is to assist the Hiereus and Hierophant in the execution of their duties, and to reconcile between them. Most (not all) of this officer's duties are in relationship to the other two.

Now, while the Hierophant is "the Sun of Life and Light," the Hiereus presides over the twilight, and that darkness which exists in the absence of the Sun of Life and Light - that is, over the darkness aspect. The Hierophant and Hiereus are, therefore, a natural pair, with the Hiereus distinctly being the ranking member of the First Order and carrying out a great deal of oversight, though the Hierophant rules the temple ultimately. (No, not ultimately: for the Hierophant serves only by the authority of the three Chiefs, and in conformity with "the rules of the Order," i.e., actuality.)

If that's right, then does the fact that Maat assumed the role of Hiereus in 1904 explain why a number of magicians (Jones, Grant, Nema, etc.) have felt that there is a Maatian "current" (I've never liked that term for some reason) running beneath the dominant one of Horus?

I can't speak for why other people had particular ideas. As the years go on and our temple work with these archetypes grows ever deeper, it's very difficult for me to think of the Horus 'rulership' of the Aeon without understanding him in the context of a polarity relationship with Maat.

It's really interesting to think that this "discovery" of the dual current is really just something that should have been obvious from examination of the HOGD officer structure.

It was! <g> Crowley understood it. We've actively worked this in Temple of Thelema for about a quarter of a century.

[gmugmble]

Crowley understood it.

Based on what, may I ask?

[Jim Eshelman]

Crowley understood it.

Based on what, may I ask?

I'd have to find the passages... but, basically, it's evident in his reference to Horus having ascended to the East, and Maat as in line to succeed Him in the next aeon.

[Uni_Verse]

Don't forget that, as Horus is the Hierophant of the present aeon, Maat is its Hiereus

Hm, interesting. That brings a number of ideas that have been bouncing around in my head a bit more development.

And even though I remained a solo practitioner I would still recommend it as a read because there's a lot of sophisticated symbolism that a group can convey that an individual can't - so I used to animate these rituals in my head. Worth doing if you can't join a temple - and makes the issues above rather obvious as well.

I agree.
Though I would hold off on going through them astrally only if you are certain you will not have an opportunity to actually go through them in the foreseeable future.

I stress, that if you were to pick up the "Complete Golden Dawn" DO NOT READ THROUGH IT AS IF IT WERE A BOOK.

Work your way up the grades, only going onto the next once you have completed the Work of the prior grade.
At the very least, spend a few months on each grade before moving on.

That is: approach the Work of the Order as if you were a member of it.

[Iamus]

DO NOT READ THROUGH IT AS IF IT WERE A BOOK.

But it is a book

[Q789]

Milk, I have been around long enough to have made certain observations about people in the occult.
Firstly, let me say i refer to nobody here in this forum. But i have noticed that not every body picks up on the Maat current(i only call it that out of convenience). For example, when i was in the OTO i was the only one who picked up on Maat. Some where purely intellectual, some where there only for the drugs and some where lost sheep, some too where serious however just didn't seem to be able to get any real experiences out of it. However, out of all that, they manage to unravel the LBR like nothing i have ever read, and even wrote a southern hemisphere version.

It seems that every one has their own will- and it might just not be yours.

In summary, and in reference to the Neptune issue, keeping in mind Grant did over link the symbolism. All consciousness comes out of the abyss- that is all symbols, Neptune included, have their seeds in the tunnels of set. I can assure you from my own heart and experience. The tunnels are the basic fundamental structure of day consciousness.
All symbolism comes out of the abyss and thus all magick- genuine magick is based on the abyss.

Q

[milkBoxx]

You were right in referring to "nobody".

[christinespandex]

I'm new to all of this, but i've checked out kenneth grant and he seems mad as a hatter. The advantage of this is that I can see anyone who reveres him is probably on the same path of confusion and dispersion and should thus be avoided as well. Like attracts like.

[HRUMACHIS]

Nightside is the most useful I have found. Very heavy on the Qabalah of AL, how to use the Keys, and is an elaboration of Liber 231. It does seem bizzare...I had to read the book a few times to get it. Which makes sense now since the arcana presented is non-linear and must manifest as such in the text. It is quite coherent. There i potentially dangerous information in there I question if he should have revealed specifically around the Atus and a few others, including secret keys. But I suppose he veiled and withheld enough such that it is still somewhat hidden. Aside from the typesetting issues in the print itself, its one of his better ones and has helped me a great deal in studying AL, specifcally the Qabalah and numeric ciphers.

[amunra]

You have a point that Grant seems to undermine the very basis of the qlphth. I've seen a number of writers of the lucifarian etal trad. do the same with infernal dimansions...there is a certain sympathy with wrathful deities from the east. a kind of exploration and speculation geared towards formulating perspectives in the western mystical currents a sensabilty of this. a kind of untabooing the usage of destructive forces and seeing the benefit of said influences. also he does seem to simply enjoy manuevering ideas around echother to effect the angle of perception. the qliphoth seems to lose it meaning when made into attributes to be saught though sometimes you must stear into a skid to correct it.

[HRUMACHIS]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/1270956_10201996288859612_1034283614_o.jpg

[HRUMACHIS]

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[Angel of Death]

Is that magic eight ball on your desk??? What is this supposed to be a picture of/for?

[HRUMACHIS]

Is that magic eight ball on your desk??? What is this supposed to be a picture of/for?

Did you even bother to do the Qabalah of the Atu presented? Or do all yourThelemic answers come from magic 8 balls?