Kether

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Kether

Postby Coagvla » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:20 am

Quick one,

I have always thought of Kether as almost an act, the act of dissolution in or union with the Absolute (ie: Samadhi, of course one can experience Samadhi with any 'object' but this would be -'Ultimate' Samadhi) Thinking of Kether as the point and Hadit, would I be better thinking of it as the point to which everything has to be narrowed down to before union with the Absolute, Nuit. If so is Nuit in this instance Ain, or rather the totality of everything.
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Re: Kether

Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:16 am

Yes. Exactly.
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Re: Kether

Postby Coagvla » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:19 pm

Condense all too a point in Kether then unite this with everything in Samadhi?
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Re: Kether

Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:23 pm

Coagvla wrote:Condense all too a point in Kether then unite this with everything in Samadhi?

Well, samadhi comes long before Kether. But I think you have the right idea.
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Re: Kether

Postby Coagvla » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:46 pm

I was wondering that, I always thought k+C = Samadhi
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Re: Kether

Postby Starry Soul » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:51 pm

There are many "kinds" of samadhi.
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Re: Kether

Postby Coagvla » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:12 pm

Many kinds of Samadhi or many 'objects' with which one can unite
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Re: Kether

Postby Starry Soul » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:20 pm

Sort of. Not very useful to try to talk about it much. I feel more like trying to get there. :wink:
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Re: Kether

Postby Coagvla » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:22 pm

Come on man, action is far more important than words, but you need to have a clear idea of what your trying to do
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Re: Kether

Postby Starry Soul » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:35 pm

I can see how that's true and how it's not in this case, but I don't have anything else to add. :wink:
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Re: Kether

Postby Coagvla » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:02 am

Perhaps you could add how it's not true
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Re: Kether

Postby Starry Soul » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:37 am

You said [we] need a clear idea of what [we're] trying to do, but we can't have a "clear idea" of samadhi: we have to experience it. We know the how. And that's what matters.

(I didn't mean to hijack your thread, if that's what happened, so I apologize for any inconvenience.)
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Re: Kether

Postby Coagvla » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:16 pm

No apologies necessary. I agree completely with the focus on experience rather than endless theorising to put off doing the hard work.

But for me, in the last 25 years I've not really had anyone to discuss these ideas with, especially people of the calibre I've found in this forum. I have done a lot of work these past years and have found many of the answers already to the questions I've asked here. However, I think it's really helpful to check my ideas with people who are so switched on, if you don't agree with me or think I may be on the wrong track then I really do want to hear it. I'm not trying to sell anything or prove anything and I consider someone disagreeing me as valuable as someone who agrees. So, if you could explain how you think I may be on the wrong track with my ideas you would be doing me a favour (I also think that you would benefit from being able to clearly explain your ideas). And if it turns out we don't agree then so be it, individuality must always come before confirming. I also apologise if I'm flogging this to death, as I say, I'm new to this and still finding my way.
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Re: Kether

Postby Starry Soul » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Got it.

You're not "wrong", it's just that I don't know any better. To address your original question, yes, K&C is "a" samadhi, or so I understand.

Someone like J.A.E. would be able to give more insight, but he still would be limited by language: Truth is suprarational, and samadhi is (or so I understand), among other things, a direct perception of Truth — this also means that, when you get there, you'll know it, so there's no great necessity of describing it. So, there's only so much that can be said in this case.
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Re: Kether

Postby Coagvla » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:35 pm

Fair enough
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Re: Kether

Postby Simon Iff » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:07 am

Coagvla wrote:... anyone to discuss these ideas with, especially people of the calibre I've found in this forum. I have done a lot of work these past years and have found many of the answers already to the questions I've asked here. However, I think it's really helpful to check my ideas with people who are so switched on, if you don't agree with me or think I may be on the wrong track then I really do want to hear it. I'm not trying to sell anything or prove anything and I consider someone disagreeing me as valuable as someone who agrees. So, if you could explain how you think I may be on the wrong track with my ideas you would be doing me a favour (I also think that you would benefit from being able to clearly explain your ideas). And if it turns out we don't agree then so be it, individuality must always come before confirming. ...

Just have to note that we have very similar motivations for being here, and due to that I find your position on this quite gratifying :D
The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Saith with his voice of truth and calm:
I weave thee in the spinning charm
I lure thee with the billowy tune.

The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Hath parted from the darkling crowds
Hath joined the dwellers of the light
Hath made his passage into night
His pleasure on the earth to do
Amongst the living.

And again and again and again.
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Re: Kether

Postby Simon Iff » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:20 am

My take on this is ... (sorry should I repeat stuff that is common knowledge here or to some, I'm just ordering my reflections on this as I write):

Samadhi is a state of deep concentration on a meditation object. As this is the first state at which what is usually internally modelled as a perceiver and something perceived, undergo a fusion of sorts, it often happens that people can not or only partially remember or reconstruct what actually happened after the experience.

That changes if the experience is repeated often. Self-reflection can then reach a level at which some sort of meta-perception can perceive the processes of perceiving, perceived and the creation of (reality? existence?) out of these polar opposites and translate that experience "down" into everyday consciousness. That is where the "meta-samadhi's" or higher samadhi's start which are reflective levels upon samadhi, these are described in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika for example.

The highest form of Samadhi is probably Nirvikalpasamadhi, which from the way it is described is possibly having a samadhi on samadhi? I am out of my league there as I have never experienced this form of samadhi (yet?).

Building on this, from my experiences and comparisons to other's descriptions of theirs - so not entirely sure about the generalisability (is that a proper word?) - think that the HGA experience is a samadhi on one's own self. And Crowley attributed Nirvikalpasamadhi to Kether.

That would be my take, always interested myself in the experiences and interpretations of others (presuming that those interpretations are also based on experiences).
The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Saith with his voice of truth and calm:
I weave thee in the spinning charm
I lure thee with the billowy tune.

The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Hath parted from the darkling crowds
Hath joined the dwellers of the light
Hath made his passage into night
His pleasure on the earth to do
Amongst the living.

And again and again and again.
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Re: Kether

Postby Starry Soul » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:31 am

Simon Iff wrote:Samadhi is a state of deep concentration on a meditation object. As this is the first state at which what is usually internally modelled as a perceiver and something perceived, undergo a fusion of sorts, it often happens that people can not or only partially remember or reconstruct what actually happened after the experience.

This sounds more like dhyana. Samadhi is higher than that.
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Re: Kether

Postby Simon Iff » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:47 am

Starry Soul wrote:
Simon Iff wrote:Samadhi is a state of deep concentration on a meditation object. As this is the first state at which what is usually internally modelled as a perceiver and something perceived, undergo a fusion of sorts, it often happens that people can not or only partially remember or reconstruct what actually happened after the experience.

This sounds more like dhyana. Samadhi is higher than that.

Higher in what way? Which phenomena are missing from my description in your opinion? As said, I am interested in the experiences of others too, as this helps to understand and inform mine.
The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Saith with his voice of truth and calm:
I weave thee in the spinning charm
I lure thee with the billowy tune.

The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Hath parted from the darkling crowds
Hath joined the dwellers of the light
Hath made his passage into night
His pleasure on the earth to do
Amongst the living.

And again and again and again.
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Re: Kether

Postby Starry Soul » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:53 am

Aleister Crowley wrote:Dhyana resembles Samadhi in many respects. There is a union of the ego and the non-ego, and a loss of the senses of time and space and causality. Duality in any form is abolished. The idea of time involves that of two consecutive things, that of space two non-coincident things, that of causality two connected things.

These Dhyanic conditions contradict those of normal thought; but in Samadhi they are very much more marked than in Dhyana. And while in the latter it seems like a simple union of two things, in the former it appears as if all things rushed together and united. One might say that in Dhyana there was still this quality latent, that the One existing was opposed to the Many non-existing; in Samadhi the Many and the One are united in a union of Existence with non-Existence. This definition is not made from reflection, but from memory.

Further, it is easy to master the "trick" or "knack" of Dhyana. After a while one can get into that state without preliminary practice; and, looking at it from this point, one seems able to reconcile the two meanings of the word which we debated in the last section. From below Dhyana seems like a trance, an experience so tremendous that one cannot think of anything bigger, while from above it seems merely a state of mind as natural as any other. Frater P., before he had Samadhi, wrote of Dhyana: "Perhaps as a result of the intense control a nervous storm breaks: this we call Dhyana. Samadhi is but an expansion of this, so far as I can see."
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Re: Kether

Postby Simon Iff » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:21 am

Hi Patrick, thanks, I did already know Crowley's description!

The latter being samadhi and the former dhyana in your quote "in the latter it seems like a simple union of two things, in the former it appears as if all things rushed together and united" that doesn't change anything I wrote as far as I can see, Crowley describes samadhi as a clearer experience of the self/non-self union than dhyana.

I was perhaps fuzzy about the Existence/non-Existence part ... the surprising thing (for me) is to find out that one still exists after observer and observed have merged. That has some quite deep ontological implications concerning the relationship of qualia and "outside world" - and the question if/how/to what extent the two are different at all, perhaps even concerning the possibility of survival of one's biological death.

The "loss of the senses of time and space and causality" is a direct consequence of the fusion of self and non-self, methinks.

Regards

Simon
The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Saith with his voice of truth and calm:
I weave thee in the spinning charm
I lure thee with the billowy tune.

The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Hath parted from the darkling crowds
Hath joined the dwellers of the light
Hath made his passage into night
His pleasure on the earth to do
Amongst the living.

And again and again and again.
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Re: Kether

Postby Starry Soul » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:40 am

The difference between dhyana and samadhi seems to be a matter of intensity (I may, of course, be totally wrong). The initial reason I thought your first description looked more like dhyana was because it seemed to be too "shallow", while samadhi is supposed to be, you know, totally awesome and greatest thing ever. :D
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Re: Kether

Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:45 am

Starry Soul wrote:The difference between dhyana and samadhi seems to be a matter of intensity (I may, of course, be totally wrong). The initial reason I thought your first description looked more like dhyana was because it seemed to be too "shallow", while samadhi is supposed to be, you know, totally awesome and greatest thing ever. :D

In Qabalistic terms (rather than descriptive language), I would distinguish them thus:

Dhyana: The exact threshold between Yetzirah and Briah, here (figuratively) the veil is withdrawn. Its phenomena are those of the Yetziratic aspects of the psyche (especially intellect, emotion, and imagery) being impactedf and affected by the Briatic.

Samadhi: Abiding in Briatic consciousness.

In the model of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness, dharana is standing before the veil before the Holy of Holies; dhyana is opening the veil; and samadhi is stepping within the Holy of Holies.
Love is the law, love under will.
Yours in L.V.X.,
Jim Eshelman
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Re: Kether

Postby Simon Iff » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:51 am

Starry Soul wrote:The difference between dhyana and samadhi seems to be a matter of intensity

I agree.

Starry Soul wrote:The initial reason I thought your first description looked more like dhyana was because it seemed to be too "shallow", while samadhi is supposed to be, you know, totally awesome and greatest thing ever. :D

I don't know if you have personal experience with these two states, but my first dhyana which happened when I was 17 and no one could explain to me what had actually happened also had a definite "totally awesome and greatest thing ever" feel to it. I was like, WTF did just happen? It was great somehow, and totally - cleansing - of the small background thoughts babbling for weeks even after the event.

Later, my first samadhi came more gradually and with more and regular exercise and experience and more like "ah, so that is what it's like" - that is when I started to remember what actually happened "in there" :wink:

Obviously, personal experience & interpretation are subjective in and of themselves, and one needs input to find out what is objective and whatnot.

I find Ken Wilber's holon theory interesting - that every "higher" - or, from that POV, more integral - state of consciousness encompasses and includes all "lower" states, and the first experiences with a new state are usually totally awesome, later one develops a bit of a distance from a more encompassing POV and so the old awesomenesses are just possible states of mind then ...

Cheers 8)

Simon
The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Saith with his voice of truth and calm:
I weave thee in the spinning charm
I lure thee with the billowy tune.

The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Hath parted from the darkling crowds
Hath joined the dwellers of the light
Hath made his passage into night
His pleasure on the earth to do
Amongst the living.

And again and again and again.
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Re: Kether

Postby Simon Iff » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:54 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:In Qabalistic terms (rather than descriptive language), I would distinguish them thus:

Dhyana: The exact threshold between Yetzirah and Briah, here (figuratively) the veil is withdrawn. Its phenomena are those of the Yetziratic aspects of the psyche (especially intellect, emotion, and imagery) being impactedf and affected by the Briatic.

Samadhi: Abiding in Briatic consciousness.

In the model of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness, dharana is standing before the veil before the Holy of Holies; dhyana is opening the veil; and samadhi is stepping within the Holy of Holies.

Thanks, that was enormously useful for me to connect your usage of the words yetziratic and briatic consciousness with personal experiences.

Allow me a counter-question if I have correctly connected some dots: In your language, raising the kundalini into sahasrara chakra should lead beyond the abyss and into aziluthic consciousness then, is that correct?

Cheers

L
The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Saith with his voice of truth and calm:
I weave thee in the spinning charm
I lure thee with the billowy tune.

The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Hath parted from the darkling crowds
Hath joined the dwellers of the light
Hath made his passage into night
His pleasure on the earth to do
Amongst the living.

And again and again and again.
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Simon Iff
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Posts: 136
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