Astrological Small-card Systemics: Hearsay Or Logical Expo?

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Astrological Small-card Systemics: Hearsay Or Logical Expo?

Postby Luce » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:04 am

As the title suggests, I have a question about ASSHOLE, specifically the ASSHOLE of the Golden Dawn in general and the ASSHOLE of The Great Beast in particular.

Are the titles given by the GD and the titles given by AC wholly logical with regard to the astrological correspondences of each card?

For example, does Jupiter in Gemini logically result in Oppression and Interference? Or is it just one possible interpretation?

If I was a master of astrology, but had never heard of the tarot, would I hear of Jupiter in Gemini and think "oppression" or something similar? Can I do that with all the minor arcana? If I was a master astrologer but tarot naive, could I take a list of all the astrological correspondences and a list of all the card titles and match them together with a high degree of accuracy?

I'm having troubles seeing how the astrological data matches with the card names. Crowley acts as if it's wholly logical though, so I wonder if my confusion is just due to my naivity, or if Crowley is victim to a bit of hindsight biaa, i.e., he has an idea of the card interpretation and the astrological info and then says, "I can see why Jupiter in Gemini would be oppressive."

Of course, maybe the RWS card meanings were based on astrology to begin with.

As a bonus question, does the ToL information make logical sense with each card? Does it make sense that the watery aspect of Netzach is debauch? Is Briatic Netzaxh jusr logically debauch? Or there a bit of hammering a square peg into a round hole to make the system work?
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Re: Astrological Small-card Systemics: Hearsay Or Logical Expo?

Postby Takamba » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:33 am

You made some mistakes in your description.

Jupiter in Gemini (plus Hod of Yetzirah) is Interference, not Oppression.
Saturn in Sagittarius (plus Malkuth of Atziluth) = OPPRESSION.

It's not just the decans (astrology) that matter, but the decans as also involved with the ToL connections.

Think of it this way:

Jupiter in Gemini would be an abundance of mentalism, whereas also the mindstuff of Mindstuff would be a lot of mindstuffiness. Combine all this abundance of mindstuffines & mental fixation and you discover, "Waste of energy in details causing neglect of more important things. Lack of persistence. Sheer, unforeseen bad luck. Restriction. Great care in some things counterbalanced by equal disorder in others."
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Re: Astrological Small-card Systemics: Hearsay Or Logical Expo?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:39 am

Luce wrote:Are the titles given by the GD and the titles given by AC wholly logical with regard to the astrological correspondences of each card?

Not if you mean purely and exclusively. Many different factors compose the nature of a card, and the decanate of the zodiac to which it corresponds is just one of these. Nonetheless, it is a contributor to the mix. - I think I previously referred you to my free book, Liber Theta, which breaks these contributions down fairly minutely.

For example, does Jupiter in Gemini logically result in Oppression and Interference? Or is it just one possible interpretation?

Do not expect astrological interpretations (if based on real observation) on astrological correspondences to Tarot (which are theoretical-conceptual) Rather, act as if astrology doesn't exist at all, and apply your knowledge of Qabbalah to understanding the symbols. In this particular case, we see the symbol of Jupiter in its detriment, so we would expect one of the less desirable expressions of Jupiter ideas. (The dignity-debility issue works pretty consistently through Tarot, e.g., the best quality of malefics being Mars and Saturn combined with a Capricorn decanate in the 3 of Disks.) The 8 of Swords is not only attributed to the Jupiter decanate of Gemini, but also to Hod in Air.

So, Hod in Air basically means that the air component is especially bound up in the Root of Form - disciplined, constrained, leading to other common traits of the card such as indecision, lack of energy, in intellect, mental constraint, “over-trained and underqualified,” “misses the forest for the trees,” and anything else that can arise from disciplining or over-disciplining a flowing aspect of consciousness in form.

With this, we have a Jupiter decanate of Gemini. Jupiter and Gemini are of anthetical natures, so we don't expect the best of it. I think the simplest explanation is that there is a lack of proportion and overly weighing down the intellect that should be light and flitting and adaptive, e.g., through too much academic formalism.

As a bonus question, does the ToL information make logical sense with each card? Does it make sense that the watery aspect of Netzach is debauch? Is Briatic Netzaxh jusr logically debauch? Or there a bit of hammering a square peg into a round hole to make the system work?

Again, I recommend you consult Liber Theta where each card is worked out explicitly in these terms.

Also, remember that the one-word code names are just that: an effort to reduce the most common expressions of a card to a single word. (When traditional titles had two or more words, Crowley made a point of reducing this to one word.) At root, I would express Netzach in Water as representing whatever principle is required, on the plane of Water, to attain Victory. That pretty much means Imagination / Visualization (which is the term I . The usual expressions of the card historically seems to come from the idea of degrading this, taking only the degenerate ideas of imagination, like a Victorian attitude toward "touching oneself" and having prurient thoughts. So that's a matter not so much of whether the principle is understood correctly, as of how that principle is expressed in language.

In particular, a residual sexism in Crowley had him regard any appearance of Venus symbolism as showing moral weakness, since (obviously) women are inherently morally weak. :twisted: Therefore, he wasn't going to redeem this card - he discussed it primarily in terms of weakness.
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Re: Astrological Small-card Systemics: Hearsay Or Logical Expo?

Postby Luce » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:09 pm

Thanks for the help! Yes, I've spent a bit of time with Liber Theta. I know all the cards can be explained in terms of their Kabbalistic significance, but I was more interested in if these Kabbalistic explanations are a bit of a retrofit. Because I'm not very skilled yet, when I read such explanations, I think, "well, that sounds compelling that water in Netzach relates to visualizarion, but would a different explanation sound just as compelling but be used to show the card should have an entirely different meaning?"

If you put ten skilled Kabbalistic in a room (who for some reason collectively hit their heads and forgot the tarot) and said "air in Geburah" would they all come to very similar conclusions?

And if I understood you correctly, there's a bit of interpretation when it comes to astrology? Forgetting the tarot for a second, ten astrologers might come to ten somewhat different thoughts about what Jupiter in Gemini might connote?
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Re: Astrological Small-card Systemics: Hearsay Or Logical Expo?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:34 pm

All astrological interpretations are some combination of theory and observation. The best ones are most heavily observation-based, while the majority (regrettably) are more theory driven and, therefore, likely to fall short of accuracy.

Personally, I think the most important thing about an interpretation of Jupiter in Gemini is that it can't have much significance at all. Everyone born in a given year (on average) has the same Jupiter sign, so it has almost no input in distinguishing people from those most closely around them, especially when they are growing up. When large libraries of character traits are compared against Jupiter signs, the statistical scores are much smaller for Jupiter signs than for the obvious Sun and Moon sign, and even than the scores of the faster nonluminary planets.
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