LBRP Divine Name Sequence

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LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 2:10 am

I managed to figure out the top-secret reason for the 4 divine names in the LBRP, but I may be missing something and wanted to know for sure

I understand the four names and now they relate to geometry... I feel like I get AHIH, AGLA, and ADNI. I'm not sure I understand the significance of YHVH. The other ones seem very obvious when one works with the geometry, but YHVH seems less obvious. The only thing I can get is that it's the combination of the three relevant numbers used. Is this all there is to it? The three numbers obviously are in a special order and add to 26, but they don't seem to fit into the geometry in a more meaningful way. I don't want to give much away, but the other names seem more verifiable with the geometry, while I can only arrive at 26 by adding up the three different numbers I'm using. I hope that makes sense. I could easily explain how 21 is a significant number, but I couldn't explain 26 besides just saying it's the combination of the three numbers in the correct order, and that the sequence is meaningful. Am I missing something?

Also, is there a reason for the specific order of the names? I know the sequence is important (let the reader understand) but could YHVH be in the South and Adonai be in the East for example? I can see how these names fit into the ritual in general, but I can't figure out why it would go YHVH ADNI AHIH AGLA instead of AHIH AGLA YHVH ADNI (or any other combination).

Finally, I don't know if I fully understand what it means for the elemental attributions in the LBRP to be based on the ADNI formula instead of the YHVH formula like in the inner order. Is it that aleph is air, dalet is Venus (ruled by fire), nun is Scorpio (water), and Yod is Virgo (earth)?
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Hermitas » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:42 am

I relate each Divine name, with a quadrant of the brain and the spiritual experience it is associated with.

Banishing, one ends with AGLA, in which the final state of the formula of names is self-consciousness and the spiritual experience of relating to the Divine as a powerful and worthy other.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:38 am

Thanks, but I'm wondering if there is significance in the exact procession of the gematria of those names. Is it significant that it goes 26-65-21-858? I know and have learned how those numbers are incredibly significant with relation to the pentagram... But I'm wondering if their order in the LBRP is significant. Could it be 65-21-26-858? Based on what I've figured out, I don't quite get why it couldn't be 65-21-26-858 or some other procession... Or could it be?

I'm sorry for being a bit vague. I know Jim is personally sworn to secrecy on this matter, so I don't want to give too much away. I know that I didn't make such a promise, but this is his forum so I'm unsure if he wants me posting it. My OP is written in such a way that if someone knows the reason for those names in the LBRP, they'll understand my questions.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:50 am

Luce wrote:I managed to figure out the top-secret reason for the 4 divine names in the LBRP, but I may be missing something and wanted to know for sure

You didn't, no. If you had, your confirmation would have been that I would have deleted this thread, since I have agreements not to be complicit in disclosing it. So that may be a clue in the future :)

But, you have other questions here that perhaps I can help with. (And the geometry is quite important.)

I'm not sure I understand the significance of YHVH. The other ones seem very obvious when one works with the geometry, but YHVH seems less obvious.

It's two of the 13s around the perimeter and, as you said, the summation of each component number.

Also, is there a reason for the specific order of the names?[]/quote]
That was the question I thought you were addressing in this thread. The answer is not mathematical-geometrical.

I know the sequence is important (let the reader understand) but could YHVH be in the South and Adonai be in the East for example?

No, not for this formula. There are other formulae where one might do this for other reasons, but it would no longer be The Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram.

Finally, I don't know if I fully understand what it means for the elemental attributions in the LBRP to be based on the ADNI formula instead of the YHVH formula like in the inner order. Is it that aleph is air, dalet is Venus (ruled by fire), nun is Scorpio (water), and Yod is Virgo (earth)?

Exactly. Lay Aleph Daleth Nun Yod around the outside - Air Venus Scorpio Virgo - planets take elemental attribution from their s'fiyrah for this kind of formulation.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Gnosomai Emauton » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:00 am

There's an article in vol.IV, no.5 of In The Continuum, available on this website, that addresses the numerical significance you mention. From what I remember, it goes in depth on the golden mean/Fibonacci arrangement of the numbers but I don't recall if it touches on the order of the names or not. It might be worth checking out, though.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:03 am

It does not. To be clear, the reason for the sequence has never been published.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:46 pm

Whwhaaaaattttt I thought for sure the secret was the Golden ratio, Fibonacci, geometry thing! I remember you hinting that the sequence of the names was important, and that the punchline was 858.

26 is the summation of 5, 8, and 13.
65 is the perimeter of the Pentagon in which the pentagram is inscribed.
21 is the length of each line.
858 is 8-5-8, the line segment lengths that make up each line.

So that's not the secret? I've never seen you mention the above on all the threads in which people ask about the Divine names.

Does the above not have anything to do with the secret order of the names? Am I completely off?

Is it the sentence "To be Lord, I am mighty forever" or something like that?
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:17 pm

What you've mentioned has much to do either the ritual itself, and I've pointed people toward it many times. I just don't work it out for them.

But it isn't connected at all the question if why the names incur in the sequence YHVH, ADNI, AHYH, A.G.L.A.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:52 pm

I see. I know you mentioned that the info is in a pre-zohar Kabbalistic text. Would someone with a basic knowledge of qabalah and a copy of 777 be able to figure it out without reading it in a book? Like, if i study 777 long enough and go down eough lines of thinking, is there a chance I might figure it out? Or would you actually need to find it in that ancient Kabbalistic text?
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:59 pm

Luce wrote:I see. I know you mentioned that the info is in a pre-zohar Kabbalistic text. Would someone with a basic knowledge of qabalah and a copy of 777 be able to figure it out without reading it in a book?

Highly unlikely. It's possible - the pattern is entirely obvious after you know what you're looking at - but I do note that nobody has figured it out and published it until now, so at least it isn't widespread easy.

777 leaves out one critical attribution on line 6 because the GD didn't use the attribution in exactly that way. The attribution (which is quite ancient and of great importance) is restored in 776 1/2.

Like, if i study 777 long enough and go down eough lines of thinking, is there a chance I might figure it out? Or would you actually need to find it in that ancient Kabbalistic text?

Or from receiving it the course of initiation. It's disclosed to Temple of Thelema Second Order members, for example.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Gnosomai Emauton » Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:41 pm

Jim, do you have a recommendation for what to tell that part of the mind that wants to understand the whys of the ritual but has nowhere to confirm the answer?

You say that TOT second order maintains the correct answer but, as that is isolated to two or three cities, its not really a practical answer for 99.9999% of sincere aspirants. Given the rocky history of the various lineages of the A.'.A.'., it's unlikely that the correct answer is part of that oral tradition or it would have been published by some disgruntled Zelator or other by now. The modern lineages of the golden dawn are even more fractious and childlike than any of the A.'.A.'. squabbles so I can't imagine that you'd have better than even odds if you chose to work with one of them.

I realize that the actual answer underlying all of this is that, until A.C. decided to publish it in The Equinox, it was a secret ritual of the G.D. so questions like this wouldn't arise outside the realm of graded instruction. But, since it is now probably the most commonly performed ritual in the canon thanks to A.C.'s publication, how can the lonely practitioner ensure that s/he is doing it correctly?
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:29 pm

Gnosomai Emauton wrote:Jim, do you have a recommendation for what to tell that part of the mind that wants to understand the whys of the ritual but has nowhere to confirm the answer?

Since (1) the answer is completely irrelevant to performing the ritual, and (2) the mind isn't likely to let go of the question, the usual practical answer is: Make up an answer. (It doesn't matter what answer you make up as long as your intellect is satisfied and stops jabbering about the question.)

The best form of "make up an answer" is to be intensely mindful of the ritual and its symbolism while performing it, observe whatever ideas go through the mind, and accept whatever floats through - but don't be stuck on it.

That's actually the best way to approach all sorts of things. :) Just experience the thing and bear witness.

Given the rocky history of the various lineages of the A.'.A.'., it's unlikely that the correct answer is part of that oral tradition or it would have been published by some disgruntled Zelator or other by now.

It isn't. It appears nowhere in the written or oral traditions of A.'.A.'., and I don't even disclose it to A.'.A.'. aspirants working under me. That would violate my pledge, unless they were also Second Order initiates of Temple of Thelema.

The good news is that it isn't likely ever to get in their way.

I realize that the actual answer underlying all of this is that, until A.C. decided to publish it in The Equinox, it was a secret ritual of the G.D. so questions like this wouldn't arise outside the realm of graded instruction. But, since it is now probably the most commonly performed ritual in the canon thanks to A.C.'s publication, how can the lonely practitioner ensure that s/he is doing it correctly?

By following the instructions of physical things to do. One doesn't need to know how a car was built in order to drive it. This ritual, done by rote, does its job. That's why my one main published article on the Pentagram Ritual (the one reproduced in Pearls was done originally as a beginner's column with almost no details except what to do: That's all that people need, at least until very deep into their work; and devoted practice of the ritual will teach enormous things and, I think, will always teach what you actually need.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 5:33 pm

Okay, check this out.

The names represent paths.

You start in Yesod (air), you travel along Tzaddi saying its divine name YHVH. You are now in Netzach (fire). You travel along Pe saying it's divine name Adonai. Now you're in Hod (water). You travel along Shin saying its Spirit divine name, Eheyeh. Now you are in Malkuth (earth). You say AGLA which is either the other spirit name of Shin, or similar to the path Tau which would bring you back to Yesod.

See? Air, fire, water, earth, back to air.

What do you think?
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:19 pm

Not deleted :)

I shouldn't be giving clues at all, but I'm incorrigible in some things. Let me say that one problem is that you are thinking of this in terms of 19th Century (and later) Qabbalah, not in terms of pre-Zohar Kabbalah. That is leading down many, er, paths.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:15 pm

Okay, but my little thing was cool, no? Haha.

I thought I was probably thinking too late in history with that concoction...

Still, if it can be deduced from 776 1/2...

I feel like my best shot is using 777 1/2, assuming that it IS possible from just that. It seems there are tons of Pre-Zohar sources. Wiki says hundreds, if you count the smaller things considered Heichalot.

I'm also not sure if I'd even know it when I read it. Ugh.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:21 pm

It's confusing to me, because AGLA doesn't have any attributions except on a path... There's no sephiroth attributed to that name.

I was thinking East is Tiphareth, South is Malkuth, West is Kether, and North is...?
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:42 pm

It really isn't proper to turn this into a discussion. You were originally making a statement, but now you're developing your thoughts in public. Even if you don't get the answer, that could disclose it to someone else along the way. You should think about wrapping this thread up and moving on unless part of your original question hasn't been answered.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:49 pm

I understand, but I guess I feel there's no way for me to know if I get it unless I post it... I guess I'll wait until I think I have the whole thing, and then post it? I don't see any other way for me to know if I figured it out.

Seems silly to me though. I understand you can't say anything, but if I say something that helps someone else figure it out, so what? I didn't think this was a big secret of the AA or something, just something you personally promised not to tell people. I guess it's your forum though, so if you want the whole issue censored, that's your call. I won't post more of my musings unless I think I have it (unless you're even against that; let me know).
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:04 pm

Luce wrote:Seems silly to me though. I understand you can't say anything, but if I say something that helps someone else figure it out, so what?

Let me explain, then. My honor/word is tied to a pledge not to disclose it except under explicit conditions. It doesn't matter if I disclose it myself. If I provide the public context in which it's disclosed, that's the same thing - I'm complicit in the act. (It's like letting someone sell drugs out of your car. It doesn't matter if you were ever near the drugs, they're gonna seize your car! <g>)

I didn't think this was a big secret of the AA or something, just something you personally promised not to tell people. I guess it's your forum though, so if you want the whole issue censored, that's your call.

Yes, thank you for understanding.

It has nothing to do with A.'.A.'. The A.'.A.'. canon of literature and oral tradition does not have this information. Temple of Thelema, in addition to drawing on A.'.A.'. roots of its founders, also has other contributing threads, including some at least a millennium older than anything the world has known as A.'.A.'.. This particular Qabbalistic knowledge descends through that older tradition. It was partially handed down and partially recovered and completed by the Chiefs of a particular Order, and they feel proprietary about it. I received it under sworn obligation. It doesn't matter whether I think it should be openly known or not (I think that would be kinda cool, actually), the price for my being permitted to communicate it at all was an agreement to limit where it is communicated to the Second Order of Temple of Thelema.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:20 pm

I understand. I guess I just echo Gnosomai's thoughts. What am I supposed to do? TOT is a thousand or so miles away from me. I've poured 10 or so solid hours into determining the reason behind the sequence and I ain't stopping. But if I can't discuss it here, I'm hooped. I know that's not your problem though. But you, being the person who knows it, are naturally the target of my findings. I can't just move on and just do the ritual anyway. I must know.

I will stop discussing it... But if I do feel I have it, I will return to this thread with my conclusion (unless that would anger you) as you're the sole person I know who can confirm if I have it or not.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:03 pm

I advise that U reassess your decision that U can't just do the ritual without this information. U suggest that this is too much involvement of the intellect.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:14 pm

Sorry, I chose my words poorly. I have no intention of stopping the ritual. But because I will continue the ritual, I must find the reason behind the ritual.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:15 pm

Go for it!
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Luce » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:54 pm

Hey, this is unrelated, but I didn't want to muck up the forum with a new topic for a smallish question. I hope this is the right decision, but let me know if you'd prefer i make a new topic in future cases. Anyway, I was wondering if you were willing to help me with this.

I read the sepher yetzirah and I noticed that the double letter planet attributions are different from the ones we all use. Whereas the single letter zodiac attributions are exactly what we use. Why don't we use the planet associations from the sepher yetzirah, e.g., gimel = Mars, dalet = Sun. I can't imagine why we'd use the single letter zodiac attributions but change the planetary double letter associations.
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Re: LBRP Divine Name Sequence

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:59 pm

Of more than half a dozen editions of the SY, they all give a different attribution list. The one we use is received oral tradition.
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