Court Card Correlations

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Court Card Correlations

Postby Lapis » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:45 am

How do the court cards of the Thoth deck correlate with the court cards of the Universal Waite deck?
As there is no King, does the Queen hold the authority? if so, what of the Formula of Tetragrammaton? If the Queen occupies the position of Yod then the entire Formula is altered.
Are the Knight & Page cards comparable? and lastly, who holds the authority between the Princess & the Prince?

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Postby Heru » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:33 am

Thoth..........Golden Dawn.........Rider Waite

Knight.........King.......................Knight..........Yod-Fire
Queen........Queen....................Queen..........Heh-Water
Prince.........Prince.....................King.............Vau-Air
Princess......Princess..................Page............Heh-Earth
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Re: Court Card Correlations

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:10 am

Lapis wrote:How do the court cards of the Thoth deck correlate with the court cards of the Universal Waite deck?
As there is no King, does the Queen hold the authority? if so, what of the Formula of Tetragrammaton? If the Queen occupies the position of Yod then the entire Formula is altered.
Are the Knight & Page cards comparable? and lastly, who holds the authority between the Princess & the Prince?

What Waite calls the King, the initiated deck calls the Knight. What Waite calls the Knight, the initiated deck calls the Prince. The "Page" is the Princess.

Or, to put it another way: They are both Y.H.V.H. Those letter attributions, per Waite, are attributed to: King, Queen, Knight, Page. Per the initiated decks: Knight, Queen, Prince, Princess.
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Postby Frater SOL » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:59 pm

93 Lapis,

The loss of the Power of the King & promotion of the Knight appears to reflect something of the Parzifal legend.

93 93/93

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Postby Uni_Verse » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:56 pm

I find it easier to associate the Knight with 'Fire,' as it presents the image of something that is in movement and full of passion.

A King is more stagnant; at the same time I can see it as the 'ever burning flame' that gives 'light' to the rest of the court cards.

KRVB MMShCh wrote:The loss of the Power of the King & promotion of the Knight appears to reflect something of the Parzifal legend


The legend is mentioned a number of times in The Book of Thoth. I need to get around to reading that :X

Though it makes me think of how the Knight would become King by force, killing the old one and turning the Princess into a Queen. Is that the loss of power you are speaking of?
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Postby Frater SOL » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:04 pm

Uni_Verse wrote:Though it makes me think of how the Knight would become King by force, killing the old one and turning the Princess into a Queen. Is that the loss of power you are speaking of?


93 Uni_Verse,

The book Parzifal opens with the death of Gandin the King, Parzifal's grandfather - but that is not specifically the incident I was referring to.
What I was referencing is in part IV or V of the text when Parzifal goes to stay with Fisher King Anfortas. Anfortas was castrated.
It is there that Parzifal first sees the Holy Graal.

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Re: Court Card Correlations

Postby Escarabajo » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:20 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:Or, to put it another way: They are both Y.H.V.H. Those letter attributions, per Waite, are attributed to: King, Queen, Knight, Page. Per the initiated decks: Knight, Queen, Prince, Princess.

I have long read that to be true and it seems to fit. But, oddly, Waite's "Pictorial key to the tarot" states:

The Diviner first selects a card........A Knight should be chosen as the Significator if the subject of inquiry is a man of forty years old and upward; a King should be chosen for any male who is under that age a Queen for a woman who is over forty years and a Page for any female of less age.

I have not been able to figure out what to make of it. :? Is Waite saying his Knight is really the Golden Dawn/Crowley Knight? The implication is that Waite's "king" is the youthful one, therefore Crowley's prince. ????

Some of the cards do seem to resemble one another. For example Waite's Knight of Swords and Crowley's Knight of Swords. Could they be the same in actuality?

Whenever I use my Waite deck, though, I still traditionally read a King as YOD.
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Postby Heru » Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:53 am

Book T seems to indicate that Knights are the Kings and Kings are Princes. The Knave is the Princess.
The Knight of Wands is "The Lord of the Flame and Lighting: the King of the Spirits of Fire."
The Queen of Wands is "The Queen of the Thrones of Flame."
The King of Wands is "The Prince of the Chariot of Fire."
The Knave of Wands is "The Princess of the Shining Flame: the Rose of the Palace of Fire."
The Knight of Cups is "The Lord of the Waves and the Waters: the King of the Hosts of the Sea."
The Queen of Cups is "The Queen of the Thrones of the Waters."
The King of Cups is "The Prince of the Chariot of the Waters."
The Knave of Cups is "The Princess of the Waters: the Lotus of the Palace of the Floods."
The Knight of Swords is "The Lord of the Wind and the Breezes: the King of the Spirits of Air."
The Queen of Swords is "The Queen of the Thrones of Air."
The King of Swords is "The Prince of the Chariot of the Winds."
The Knave of Swords is "The Princess of the Rushing Winds: the Lotus of the Palace of Air."
The Knight of Pentacles is "The Lord of the Wide and Fertile Land: the King of the Spirits of Earth."
The Queen of Pentacles is "The Queen of the Thrones of Earth."
The King of Pentacles is "The Prince of the Chariot of Earth."
The Knave of Pentacles is "The Princess of the Echoing Hills: the Rose of the Palace of Earth."
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Postby FrAAAAAM » Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:09 am

93s

Hello,

I don't know if this would be helpful or not...

However, the relationship between the Cards and IHVH is presented graphically by the images, particularly in the Initiated decks.

Yod - Atziluth - Emmanation - Abba (Father), ie the Force emanated and coming forth from the infinite is represented by the Knight as the motive force. In other words the Knight is sitting atop a "Horse" = Motive Force.

Heh - Briah - Creation - Imma (Mother), is seated on a "Throne".

Since Father and Mother produce the "Son" the figure riding in the Chariot (Combination of Horse and Throne) is Vav - Yetzirah - Formation - Son.

The Heh final has feet firmly planted on the ground and represents the "Earthing" of the other forces. The Daughter - Sister - Bride.

Well, thats my 2 cents worth.

93 93/93

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