Observations about the Thoth Tarot

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Postby HRUMACHIS » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:38 pm

The assumption I operate under is that the cards were received, not engineered by A.C. If there is conflict with the book, the card wins. I stopped refering to the book altogether. Even is his brilliance, trying to describe infinite chaos and forces of the universe manifested in the cards is an infinite road to nowhere. I suppose it is possible he purposely introduced misleading notions in the book (but NOT the cards).
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Postby zeph » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:41 pm

Perhaps, Student, but what I know of the method by which these cards were created, they were not divinely received, but carefully constructed by Harris in consultation with Crowley. Divinely received texts do not require rewrite after rewrite.

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Postby Frater SOL » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:42 pm

student2012 wrote:The assumption I operate under is that the cards were received, not engineered by A.C. If there is conflict with the book, the card wins. I stopped refering to the book altogether. Even is his brilliance, trying to describe infinite chaos and forces of the universe manifested in the cards is an infinite road to nowhere. I suppose it is possible he purposely introduced misleading notions in the book (but NOT the cards).

...but the card Zeph is referencing does contain an inconsistency. The bright light is supposed to be the Light of Chokmah shining down into Tiphareth - but since Tzaddi is not the Star, but the Emperor(Atu IV), that Light should be in the upper right-hand corner of Atu XVII.

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Postby Red Eagle of Death » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:43 pm

zeph wrote:Eagle, you'll find many oxymorons as you study the occult.

Given.

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Postby miss ruby » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:50 pm

i wouldn't be so surprised that there may be another typo. i think the very famous red unicursal hexagram that comes with the cards is supposed to have the pentagram/rose facing upright.... i think... :!:
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Postby Frater SOL » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:54 pm

miss ruby wrote:i think the very famous red unicursal hexagram that comes with the cards is supposed to have the pentagram/rose facing upright.... i think... :!:

...you think right miss ruby :wink:

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Postby HRUMACHIS » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:54 pm

zeph wrote:Perhaps, Student, but what I know of the method by which these cards were created, they were not divinely received, but carefully constructed by Harris in consultation with Crowley. Divinely received texts do not require rewrite after rewrite.

I am not aware of the method of their construction, but the things I have seen there make me think it is unlikely these were created by careful planning and rational thought. Channeled if not divine perhaps, but I doubt the hand that created the cards was guided purely by the will of AC or Harris. I wish I could explain more why I have this impression but I think it might be irresponsible to do so on this forum.
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Postby zeph » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:56 pm

Miss Ruby, it definitely is supposed to be upright. A printing error, that, not a "typo"/artistic error. You'd think the publishers would have fixed that by now, but perhaps they're protecting the market for reversed-rose pendants, which market would otherwise be nil.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:02 pm

Red Eagle of Death wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:I haven't given an opinion on that here.

It is evident that you haven't...are you avoiding the inquiry for a reason?

Oh, several. The biggest is that I don't think it matters much. This probably comes partly from my using so many decks over the years that I'm used to ignoring most details in favor of simply understanding the core idea of the card.

In this particular case, somewhere around here I have Crowley's correspondence with Harris on the matter where this is discussed. I'd hate to take a position at odds with such a record, but I'm sure not going to take the time to dig out the record. (Again, I was so unconcerned about the matter that I didn't bother even to decisively note the outcome.)

Subject to contradiction by the actual correspondence, I think it was an error that Harris made and which Crowley didn't manage to get her to correct.
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Postby miss ruby » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:03 pm

Miss Ruby, it definitely is supposed to be upright.

yeah... every time i see those inverted pentagrams/roses on the unicursal hexagrams, i can't help it but i get a little upset... :(
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:04 pm

Lapis wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:"Proper construction" of a Tarot deck refers to the symbols on it, not the words. Anything your conscious mind can read is pretty insignificant. (And yes, that includes the titles of the cards.)

This is a logical inconsistency. Everything is a symbol that communicates something or another to the subconscious mind - & for a Qabalist, this is especially true of letters.

Letters such as the Hebrew letter of the path - but not so much words written on it.

In other words: Is it being used as a symbol (speaking to subconsciousness) or a word (speaking to self-consciousness). I submit that the word on the awning is of the latter type (utterly unnecessary for the former).
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:05 pm

Red Eagle of Death wrote:If it's a pictoral error, then(unless that light is made of letters), according to Jim's definition of 'properly constructed', it is an improperly constructed deck...so which is it?

You're missing a third possibility: It's visually accurate, but the light is not (as the text suggests) from Chokmah.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:07 pm

student2012 wrote:The assumption I operate under is that the cards were received, not engineered by A.C.

No, that's wrong. That's not how it happened.

Crowley gave some rough notes to Harris. Harris painted pictures (and any real inspiration was hers). He asked her for corrections sometimes and to redo cards sometimes. Usually she did. He was grateful for the paintings.

It was an artistic-literary collaboration. She drew on his writings and her own artistry, he had (for the most part) editorial control.
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Postby HRUMACHIS » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:12 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
student2012 wrote:The assumption I operate under is that the cards were received, not engineered by A.C.

No, that's wrong. That's not how it happened.

Crowley gave some rough notes to Harris. Harris painted pictures (and any real inspiration was hers). He asked her for corrections sometimes and to redo cards sometimes. Usually she did. He was grateful for the paintings.

It was an artistic-literary collaboration. She drew on his writings and her own
artistry, he had (for the most part) editorial control.


Hey Jim, ok fair enough.

Was there some magical operation in progress parallel to this collaboration?
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Postby Frater SOL » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:13 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:You're missing a third possibility: It's visually accurate, but the light is not (as the text suggests) from Chokmah.

I have considered this possibility but was not able to come to any satisfactory conclusions about it...love illuminating the subconscious?

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:15 pm

student2012 wrote:Was there some magical operation in progress parallel to this collaboration?

Nothing in particular, no. The magick of writing letters back and forth...
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Postby HRUMACHIS » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:29 am

Another 'discovery', new to me anyway, and one I can share, once the card is alive on the astral, it is possible to project the consciousness of the operator into different parts of the card. Meaning that instead of you looking outside and into the card, your seat of consciousness is inside the card, looking around from that vantage point. An example is the Queen of Disks, placing it in the center in the cube on her wand. Another is the Prince of Disks, and the Princess of Disks. I place myself inside these 3D objects and look out from it to the rest of the card, or the world specified by it. Very interesting result.

It is possible to put the seat of consciousness into a figure as well, sort of an assumption of a godform in the card. An example of this is the Princess of Swords. When I did that I heard a booming voice in the aether, but I could not understand the words.
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Postby Gideon Jagged » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:07 pm

KRVB MMShCh wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:You're missing a third possibility: It's visually accurate, but the light is not (as the text suggests) from Chokmah.

I have considered this possibility but was not able to come to any satisfactory conclusions about it...love illuminating the subconscious?

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Just some thoughts, not meant to be conclusive or definitive. The light is not from the fiery Sephira Chokhmah at the top of the pillar of force, but from the fiery Sephira Netzach at the base of that pillar. This path imprints Desire (Netzach) onto the the Subconscious in Yesod. What does the Emperor desire? Governance and good order. Where better to impose that than at a level below (normal) conscious access? How does he do that? Notice that the Emperor is turned away from the light. Notice also that he appears to be meditating. Finally, the light strikes his left (Lunar = Yesod) side.

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Postby Modest » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:19 am

Sorry for off topic but I have found a Gajatri yantra that has a hexagram and an inverted pentagram in the middle. Has anyone seen it? I could post a photo.
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Postby Ankh » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:29 am

93 Tarot,
Just some thoughts, not meant to be conclusive or definitive. The light is not from the fiery Sephira Chokmah at the top of the pillar of force, but from the fiery Sephira Netzach at the base of that pillar. This path imprints Desire (Netzach) onto the the Subconscious in Yesod. What does the Emperor desire? Governance and good order. Where better to impose that than at a level below (normal) conscious access? How does he do that? Notice that the Emperor is turned away from the light. Notice also that he appears to be meditating. Finally, the light strikes his left (Lunar = Yesod) side.

AHA :!: Thank you for the insight Tarot, the Tzaddi/Heh switch just became crystal clear. :D
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Postby HRUMACHIS » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:52 pm

Modest wrote:Sorry for off topic but I have found a Gajatri yantra that has a hexagram and an inverted pentagram in the middle. Has anyone seen it? I could post a photo.


hmmm I cannot see that one yet.
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Postby HRUMACHIS » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:25 am

Somehow I thought of the Knight of Swords when I saw this sigil:

Image

Interestingly, the sigil seems to be fractally generated like other Things We (Us) have seen.

The 'hat' that he wears is a compass with the four directions manifesting in gold letters.
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Postby HRUMACHIS » Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:17 am

Remember dear friends, that some cards you must project the seat of consiousness into the card. And if you can, remember these gifts are not for you or Us.
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Gayatri yantra

Postby Modest » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:17 am

Gayatri yantra, Rajastan, XVIII century, gouache.

Found in Lithuanian translation: Upanišados - Audrius Beinorius, 2006
Translation source: Sri Sankaracaryagranthavali. Prathamo Bhagah: Isadidasopanisadah Sankarabhasyayuktah, ed. Sri Govinda Sastri (Dilli: Motilal Banarsidass, 1992)

Image

An inverted pentagram in a hexagram. What's that?
P.S. Maybe this should be a new topic?
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Re: Gayatri yantra

Postby HRUMACHIS » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:22 am

Modest wrote:Gayatri yantra, Rajastan, XVIII century, gouache.

Found in Lithuanian translation: Upanišados - Audrius Beinorius, 2006
Translation source: Sri Sankaracaryagranthavali. Prathamo Bhagah: Isadidasopanisadah Sankarabhasyayuktah, ed. Sri Govinda Sastri (Dilli: Motilal Banarsidass, 1992)

Image

An inverted pentagram in a hexagram. What's that?
P.S. Maybe this should be a new topic?


Just to clarify since there are a couple different Atu discussed on this thread, which one do you mean?
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