Symbols in the 10 of swords thoth tarot card.

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Symbols in the 10 of swords thoth tarot card.

Postby niveks » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:04 pm

I wanted to see if anyone knew the symbolic meaning of the 2 compasses on the hilts of the 2 swords with one being in Chokmah & the other in Binah. Also inside the 2 compasses is that an hourglass symbol?
Moving along the top sword which is in Kether has a scale on it's hilt what is the meaning of this symbol? The pentagram at the bottom is a symbol of man as well as Mars the Moon at the hilt on the bottom sword has to do with the unconscious thoughts which have now come to the surface. Would anyone agree on the hour glass symbol which relates to Saturn & the scales which is Libra so we have Saturn exalted in Libra also?
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10/swords

Postby niveks » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:50 pm

Yes i have owned & read the BOT for 16yrs it says nothing of the compasses anywhere in the book. You know rifraff i am not an idiot when it comes to the Thoth tarot even though you think i am sorry to disappoint you. Then you tell me where in the BOT it talks about the Compasses on the hilts of the 2 swords since you seem to know so much but yet add nothing to my posts.
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Postby deleted » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:45 pm

Cool... well then I feel justified in guessing now...

“[Ten of Swords-RUIN] shows reason run mad, ramshackle riot of soulless mechanism; it represents the logic of lunatics and (for the most part) of philosophers.”

...lol... I guess I'll let my mechanism run riot and see what comes out - philosophy, lunacy, or both...!

The two compasses make me think of the process of drawing the Vesica Pisces. The two resulting spheres and the vesica produced by them are an analogy for all self/other relationships - all Hadits and Nuits - Chokmas and Binahs... The vesica is the "field of interaction" between the two spheres that IS the rest of the Tree, IMHO. (See also the technique of imagining Hadit at the root chakra and Nuit at the crown.)

The "hourglass" shape of the hilt... I guess could be indicative of Saturn, but that's usually more associated with Binah. You could fudge it a little and say that the interaction of the two sephira results in time, but... it starts to feel like I'm "reaching" for it a little too hard. Don't have a feeling for that one. They look more like lava lamps to me, and the base of the scales up top could just as easily be considered a hourglass or a cup, though it really looks like neither either.

The heart is broken because it loves ALL while ALL (governments, peolpe, OR thoughts) are intent on killing one another. The emotions are overwhelmed by the battle taking place in the mind, attempting to reduce all opposites to a primal Duality, and thereby a primal, balanced, 'equal' Unity. These overwhelmed emotions in combination with the battle in the mind breed lunacy. Those of us who are lucky may make it through to the process breeding philosophy instead.

But who's to say? We are all quite mad here...

'Asante sana Squash banana, Wiwi nugu Mi mi apana" - Rafiki :wink:
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Thanks Frater AVV

Postby niveks » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:21 pm

Thank you so much for your kind response. Thats an interesting way of looking at the compasses i am sure there are many ways to view the compasses. I know that Jim knows so i wish he would enlighten me on this
matter.
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Postby deleted » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:23 pm

'Asante sana Squash banana, Wiwi nugu Mi mi apana" :lol:
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Postby niveks » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:00 am

Ok i owe you an apology so sorry. Well why do you think Crowley put those damn compassses on the specific 2 cards that are in Chokmah & Binah? I still think their is more to the symbolism going on here than meets the eye. Nothing is worse than trying to find out/learn about something when other people have the answer but won't share it with you it's not like i am asking for top secret documents it's only symbols.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:19 am

niveks wrote:Well why do you think Crowley put those damn compassses on the specific 2 cards that are in Chokmah & Binah?

The first thing to remember is that Crowley didn't put it there - Harris did. She did the majority of the design off of his limited notes, and he approved the results. In particular, she is responsible for embellishment of fine details.

Second, IMHO most such things are simply decoration. They don't necessarily have intended meaning (though, on a given occasion, they can serve as springboards to one's intuitilon). There is simply a general intention to decorate with occult symbols.

Third, IMNSHO putting overly much attention on such fine points locks us into a specific deck, and that's usually fatal. You need to understand the card outside the context of any particular deck. The 10 of Swords is Malkuth in Yetzirah and Malkuth expressed through Air (not the same things - two different expressions of the same symbol). Especially it shows the border between the apex of Assiah and the penetration into the base of Yetzirah. Finally, it corresponds to the last decanate of Gemini, to which is attributed the Sun.

Why put compasses in those two exact places? Well, when you examine the card, you'll see that the symbols are all balanced. Something on the left is exactly matched, in a pair, with something on the right. So part of the decision is that if the artist were going to put this symbol on one of those points, she was then going to put it on the other. (Again, note how this is an artistic decision foremost: Organizing decorations in pairs.)

Why might Harris have picked that one? Besides aesthetics, one should consider what the Masonic compasses mean. They are Heaven in comparison to the Earth represented by the Square. They are Superconsciousness and Immortality in comparison to the Mortality of the Square. So they fit here as well as anything. (Compare the Rose Cross symbols at Chesed-Geburah.)

But, again, it's decoration. It's not the core meaning of the card. And we have the most to learn from understanding the core ideas of the cards as deeply as possible, in a way that transcends any particular artist's interpretation.
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Postby niveks » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:17 pm

Thanks Jim for the info. So i guess the scales being Libra & the hourglass representing Saturn can be looked at Saturn exalted in Libra or is this just another symbol Harris added for the hell of it?
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:35 pm

niveks wrote:Thanks Jim for the info. So i guess the scales being Libra & the hourglass representing Saturn can be looked at Saturn exalted in Libra or is this just another symbol Harris added for the hell of it?

Yeah, I think that whole "hourglass = Saturn because it's exalted" is a big stretch. I tend to think most of these were just artistic ornamentation - sort of "occult clip art with water colors."
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Postby niveks » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:09 pm

The reason i bring up the Saturn & hourglass is b/c in the book i have by Michael Snuffin he says that this is what those symbols mean. He has stated in his book that he is a ceremonial magician & intitiate of the O.T.O as well as founder of the Temple of Light & Darkness. Am i being misled here in his book?
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Postby deleted » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:42 pm

Probably not.

It probably just has about the same value as my own post on the matter.

Or yours, if you tell us what springs up in your intuition. But, if neither A.C. nor Harris explicitly wrote about it, then you're dealing with someone else's intuition...

That's what I'm gathering.
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Postby niveks » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:36 pm

I thought i would share this explanation of the Sun in Gemini it is from the grade papers of the Golden Dawn it is pretty technical but some of you may understand it.

10= A fixed & completed force.
Ashim = The souls of fire. These complete their work which is to break up, disintegrate & ruin the astral form that it may pass through the negative veils to be reborn in Kether of Assiah.
Sun = Very fiery energy, destructive unless it acts on a very solid material foundation & is modified.
Acting on Gemini the tenuous or most airy of air signs it is destructive.
Compare the deadly arrows of Apollo. Here the ideas take form, but the astral shells are broken up in Ruin by the souls of fire so that the forms may be reborn in the material world.

Ok well thats from the Golden Dawn papers don't know how old it is but thought this would be interesting for everyone to see & think on.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:03 pm

niveks wrote:The reason i bring up the Saturn & hourglass is b/c in the book i have by Michael Snuffin he says that this is what those symbols mean. He has stated in his book that he is a ceremonial magician & intitiate of the O.T.O as well as founder of the Temple of Light & Darkness. Am i being misled here in his book?

OK, I outrank him <vbg>.

Seriously... He's welcome to draw whatever conclusions he wishes, but there is no reason to believe these are inherent in the intended design of the card. In fact, it seems pretty strained to me.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:10 pm

niveks wrote:10= A fixed & completed force.

That's just a description of (one expression of) the function of Malkuth.

Ashim = The souls of fire. These complete their work which is to break up, disintegrate & ruin the astral form that it may pass through the negative veils to be reborn in Kether of Assiah.

The Eshim are the Angelic Choir of Malkuth, i.e., Malkuth in Yetzirah.

The paper you are quoting views the cards as if they are manifestating downward. I see it from the opposite perspective: Having ascended the Tree to Kether in Assiah, the 10 of Swords represents the breaking through into the lowest aspect of Yetzirah, and therefore represents the collapse of the entire structure of physical form etc. (i.e., "ruin").

Sun = Very fiery energy, destructive unless it acts on a very solid material foundation & is modified.

As good an explanation as any. (This is a more theoretically difficult card than most.) Of course, if one is moving up the planes instead of down, then the breakthrough, at this point, of something indistinguishable from sunlight is right on track.

Acting on Gemini the tenuous or most airy of air signs it is destructive.

That doesn't match astrological theory, but it's a good an excuse as any :)

Here the ideas take form, but the astral shells are broken up in Ruin by the souls of fire so that the forms may be reborn in the material world.

My real problem here is that this isn't how "birth into the material world" occurs. The real function of the Eshim in the process of incarnation is quite different.

Ok well thats from the Golden Dawn papers don't know how old it is...

Asa Golden Dawn paper, it must emanate from the period 1888-1900, the lifespan of the original Order.
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Postby niveks » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:11 pm

Jim i wish then you would provide an astrological explanation explaining the Sun's energy & how it reacts in Gemini. Don't use any key words just a full out explanation. I figured this paper was old just by the way it was worded.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:00 pm

niveks wrote:Jim i wish then you would provide an astrological explanation explaining the Sun's energy & how it reacts in Gemini. Don't use any key words just a full out explanation.

<sigh> As I've told you previously, this isn't "Sun in Gemini." It's the solar part of Gemini, which is a different thing.

If you wanted an astrological expression of the Sun in the constellation Gemini, read this: http://solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7#p17 - but it has very little to do with the 10 of Swords in Tarot. Remember (as I've said to you before), the Tarot doesn't actually express astrology; rather, it uses astrological symbols for its own purposes.

I think what you want is an explanation of what the Sun & Gemini components of the 10 of Swords means, yes? But I'm not sure what you mean by, "Don't use any key words just a full out explanation." Tarot (from a divinatory point of view) is all about key words!

Crowley held the view that Gemini pretty much dispersed everything solar about the card, but I doubt that's the case. He characterized their pairing as "the disruption and disorder of harmonious and stable energy," and I find that development fairly attractive.

But I think where you need to put your attention is on the fact that this card is the Malkuth idea in Swords - that is, in Air or Yetzirah. In a "top-down" sense it is "Air taken too far and over ripe." In a "bottom-up" since, it is the collapse into fragmented form of the sensual materiality that had reached its apex in the Ace of Disks, and the resulting breakthrough of the Golden Dawn of the inner world through the shards thereof.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:24 pm

I received an off-line request to post the section on 10 of Swords from my book [i]Liber Theta. Here it is:[/i]


RUIN
Ten of Swords

Four pairs of swords, as in the preceding symbol, with the points falling away from each other. Two further swords are crossed in the center, as though their junction had disunited the others. No rose, either flower or bud, is shown. Above and below are the symbols Sun and Gemini, representing the Decanate.

Malkuth of Air: Ruin, death, defeat, disruption; but, in spiritual matters, the end of delusion. Destruction at the end. Insubstantiality: Ideas, dreams, or plans never rendered practical.

Sun/Gemini: Undisciplined, warring forces, complete failure. Disruption, disorder, and dispersal of the Sun's harmonious and stable energy; damping down of the creative impulse; weakness, corruption, distingegration. Ruin of plans and projects; but (especially if well-dignified) with the implicit promise of some new dawn beyond the present circumstances. Disdain, insolence, and impertinence, yet mirth and hollity therewith. Loving to overthrow the happiness of others; gossip; given to much unprofitable speech, and many words. Yet clever and eloquent, according to dignity.


NOTE: The way to meditate on this card is, first, to understand it as Malkuth in Air and Malkuth in Yetzirah. Having established these ideas, then also, for the decanate, lay out Atu XIX, The Sun, and Atu VI, The Lovers (Gemini) and meditate thereon.
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