Moderator: Moderators - Public
Jim Eshelman wrote:Of course. The letters themselves are aright. There's no effort to change their sequence or their placement on the Tree.
Jim Eshelman wrote:...I would say that the focus on Divine Kingship climaxes at Tiphereth and, almost immediately, the Work takes a new direction beyond that point. Horus is "the visible object of workship" for those in their approach to Tiphereth, but that primarily dissolves into the feminine archetypes thereafter. The Divine King is an important, but quite intermediary and proportionately minor, archetype in the present Aeon.
Jim Eshelman wrote:But that's one of the main points of the New Aeon! The king is dead. The masculine, which for millennia was in disproportionate and excessive predominance, needs to be debased back to its proper petty place in the scheme of things (proportionately speaking).
Wizardiaoan wrote:...where the full gnosis becomes paramount is in Chokmah when the Chiah is developed, in the High Magus grade. For you to overplay Chokmah as "the Sphere of Stars" and the Divine Feminine I think is in error, though it is true that the adept at that stage will be in intimate continuous gnosis with Nuit. The King I am speaking of is Hadit in Chokmah, whose Chiah is matured and whose Ajna chakra is activated (the Divine Pharoah, etc.)
I don't buy into the Isis, Osiris, Horus aeonic theory too much.
The King Father is never in a petty place, Hadit truly is never debased.
I do agree though that there is really no chance of error in Nuit/Goddess worship, that Her gnosis is ever the highest. I also am not saying that any attachment to possible negative associations to "kingliness" (such as separative ego) should be maintained as one progresses, only that with for instance the high initiation into the Grade of Chokmah one is naturally put in accord with Hadit/Chiah/Ajna (the True Will or Self), and with it an extreme and virtuous kingly presence abounds, full of Life radiating Light.
Again, to put the Pharaoh as 7-9 in between Venus & Moon is ridiculous I think, it is much better purple as the traditional more feminized male god of Water Aquarius. I love the energy of Aquarius, and find it a good fit between 7-9, but not between 2-4 or 2-6 (it should not connect to Chokmah over The King).
gmugmble wrote:To derail the discussion slightly ...
Do we still equate Tzaddi with "the Natural Intelligence" and Heh with "the Constituting Intelligence" or do these get swapped?
Jim Eshelman wrote:I like it. And BTW, contrary to GD texts, the correct spelling of the letter name Heh is HA.
And, of course, it is Aquarius, not Aries, that is characterized by revelation.
Oliver P wrote:I wonder how AC and Lady Harris might have redesigned the two cards had they essayed the task after the interchange became evident.
Jim Eshelman wrote:Oliver P wrote:I wonder how AC and Lady Harris might have redesigned the two cards had they essayed the task after the interchange became evident.
Actually, it was evident to AC by at least Word War I, decades before they started working on the cards.
Oliver P wrote:OK; I should have said - after he decided to make the interchange (reasonably) clear in The Book of Thoth.
Jim Eshelman wrote:gmugmble wrote:To derail the discussion slightly ...
Do we still equate Tzaddi with "the Natural Intelligence" and Heh with "the Constituting Intelligence" or do these get swapped?
There's no official Thelemic position... but Temple of Thelema does keep the Path title/description with the Path. Thus, Tzaddi is Aries, The Emperor, and the Natural Consciousness, while Heh is Aquarius, The Star, and the Constituting Consciousness.
PatchworkSerpent wrote:This also raises the question of which of the other correspondences attributed to the two paths are swapped. In one edition of 777 it is stated that only the correspondences of the Tarot and the Zodiac are swapped between צ and ה.
What of the rest of the associations attributed to the paths?
Jim Eshelman wrote:PatchworkSerpent wrote:This also raises the question of which of the other correspondences attributed to the two paths are swapped. In one edition of 777 it is stated that only the correspondences of the Tarot and the Zodiac are swapped between צ and ה.
What of the rest of the associations attributed to the paths?
We are bringing 776 1/2 back into print in the near future. It has most of this worked out in detail. (It's a long answer. In general, Divine names and zodiac-based associations make up most of the correspondences, and these travel with the zodiacal attribution.)
PatchworkSerpent wrote: Thanks for the heads up - one more thing:
With his 'double loop' diagram (page 11, The Book of Thoth), Crowley asserts that the original Lust-Adjustment swap is balanced by the new Emperor-Star swap. It seems though that the former 'disrupts' the sequence of astrological signs and hebrew letters only as far as the order of the Tarot is concerned (retaining the internal consistancy of the hebrew letter/astrological attribution), whereas the latter swap does not change the order of the Tarot but does in fact 'disrupt' the hebrew letter/astrological attribution.
How can these be considered to balance each other when the nature of the swap itself is different in each case?
All of the other arguments as to why they ought to be swapped make perfect sense to me, but this minor point prevents me from accepting the notion wholeheartedly.
93, 93/93
When he made up his mind that the Emperor had to be Aquarius and the Star Aries, he produced a "New Crowley" pattern that looks more symmetrical.
threefold31 wrote:The only way the heh-tzaddi switch makes sense is if the zodiac sign stays with the letter, in keeping with the Sefer Yetzirah. That way, the Emperor is Tzaddi/Aquarius, and the Star is Heh/Aries.
This is exactly what was done when Waite switched Strength and Justice; the letters stayed with their zodiac signs, but were moved to fit cards whose symbolism he thought was more appropriate, (scales for Libra, Lion for Leo). If you want to 'balance out' what Waite did, you have to make the same kind of change, that's all.
threefold31 wrote:IF the Waite swap is okay,
So I hear you saying that Waite was in error, thus the VIII card should be Justice and XI card Strength, which is how Crowley has it in TBOT.
If that's the case, then ignore the dubious double-loop argument.
However, in this one instance - the alleged correspondence of Heh and Tzaddi to Aries and Aquarius respectively - it is wrong. I can take a sidewise approach to justifying this by (again and redundantly) pointing out that The Zohar asserted that the correct attributions of Tzaddi were intentionally withheld and distorted until a later era; but, mostly, I simply assert that The Book of the Law indicated an error regarding Tzaddi and its attribution.
You mistake my meaning regarding Waite (again, because I was quite brief on a matter explained repeatedly in the past). Waite and Crowley both recognized that there was an apparent error of some sort reflected in the attribution of the number 8 to the Lamed-Libra card, and 11 to the Teth-Leo card. Waite thought the correction needed was to swap their numbers. This was his error. Crowley eventually realized that the real error was that the complementary reversal - Aries and Aquarius, lying opposite Libra and Leo - also needed to be made. With that true correction, all the numbers, zodiacal attributions, and the rest feel correctly in place.
Jim Eshelman wrote:You've misunderstood my intent concerning zodiac vs. Tarot cards. Of course the zodiacal attributions are more basic to the Qabalistic structure, and the Tarot cards were a slightly later representation of that. My main point, though, was that the zodiacal attributions of the Tarot cards are primary, and severing those is a mistake.
Jim Eshelman wrote:However, in this one instance - the alleged correspondence of Heh and Tzaddi to Aries and Aquarius respectively - it is wrong. I can take a sidewise approach to justifying this by (again and redundantly) pointing out that The Zohar asserted that the correct attributions of Tzaddi were intentionally withheld and distorted until a later era; but, mostly, I simply assert that The Book of the Law indicated an error regarding Tzaddi and its attribution.
Jim Eshelman wrote:You mistake my meaning regarding Waite (again, because I was quite brief on a matter explained repeatedly in the past). Waite and Crowley both recognized that there was an apparent error of some sort reflected in the attribution of the number 8 to the Lamed-Libra card, and 11 to the Teth-Leo card. Waite thought the correction needed was to swap their numbers. This was his error. Crowley eventually realized that the real error was that the complementary reversal - Aries and Aquarius, lying opposite Libra and Leo - also needed to be made. With that true correction, all the numbers, zodiacal attributions, and the rest feel correctly in place.
If that's the case, then ignore the dubious double-loop argument.
Jim Eshelman wrote:Why? It's brilliant. More brilliant than even Crowley knew. It also encodes quite a number of additional things he didn't catch, including the fact that the diagram is a true Sidereal Pisces Age map. The horizontal split axis is Pisces-Virgo - the actual location of the equinox axis since 220 AD - and the apex and antapex of the diagram are Gemini and Sagittarius, the actual solstice locations in the same period. (And there's more besides solving the Tarot mystery, but that's a good start.)
On the Leo-Libra swap the tarot number is swapped.
On the Aries-Aquarius swap the hebrew letter is swapped.
PatchworkSerpent wrote:This was my issue with the swap. The attribution of Aquarius to ה and Aries to צ seems logical to me however the nature of the swap is not symmetrical.
The double loop diagram in and of itself seems correct - minus the tarot and hebrew letter attributions. The point of contention is this:
On the Leo-Libra swap the tarot number is swapped.
On the Aries-Aquarius swap the hebrew letter is swapped.
Does it matter that this messes up the symmetry?
P.S. Jim, I sent you a PM a few days ago and as yet you haven't replied- would it be better if I posted the question in the forum?
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest