Tzaddi is not the Star

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu May 24, 2007 4:09 pm

Redd Fezz wrote:Wow-zers. After reading Lon Milo DuQuette's explanation of the switch in "Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot" today, I see that this really, really makes a lot of sense.

Welcome to the real world 8)

I'm not sure what "the original arrangement" of the trumps was, though. DuQuette mentions that the Golden Dawn swapped Strength and Adjustment's trump order (8 and 11) in order to get the zodiac and hebrew letters to line up properly... but, where did they get this original arrangement from?

From all Tarot decks of the preceeding few hundred years. (Not all Tarot decks ever because it took a century or so for it to shake out - but definitely from every deck from the immediately preceeding few centuries. That is, all pre-Waite.)

I thought there were many various orders of these cards with no real known "original" order.

Not for several hundred years pre-GD.

I presume based on this that the "original" order gave Strength #11 and Adjustment #8, but where did this original order come from?

Yes. As to where... long story, but I think Case's report on the creation of Tarot is probably either the truth or something very representative of the truth.

Also, this puts a hidden star behind the sun (Sirius?)

Well, Kether and the Gimel = Isis correspondences already did that. But, then, the Sirius symbolism is actually in all three Paths connecting Tifereth to the Supernals.
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Postby redd fezz » Thu May 24, 2007 7:10 pm

Cool! Do you know where I can read more about Sirius. It's still a bit of a mystery to me (hehe, yes, a "Sirius Mystery").
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu May 24, 2007 7:26 pm

Redd Fezz wrote:Cool! Do you know where I can read more about Sirius. It's still a bit of a mystery to me (hehe, yes, a "Sirius Mystery").

Well... There's always The Sirius Mystery. Also, R.H. Allen's Star Names and miscellaneous scattered writings of Cyril Fagan.
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Postby redd fezz » Thu May 24, 2007 8:17 pm

Okay, Sirius Mystery, then. I have the book already, I just haven't taken it very seriously (heh Hé heh)... guess I will reread it now and pay closer attention... previously, I got bored aboutt 1/4 way through.
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Postby redd fezz » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:14 pm

I like how that last post made absolutely no sense to me at all, but I had the most fun speculating on whether or not you really meant inquiring natural intelligence or ACQUIRING natural intelligence. I took a good minute or so trying to read it both ways. Congratulations on using English to speak alien.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Heru » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:16 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:Maybe this is a start: The Emperor is "Sovereign Reason," by which the abundant instinctual energies of Yesod are lifted up unto those channels of devotion and desire that characterize Netzach.

I think I'm finally beginning to understand this. :o
The primal instincts of Yesod need to be harnessed and guided by the controlling influence of the Emperor, rather then be spiritualised away by the Star. The old attribution of the Star on the 28th path is symptomatic of old aeon attitudes towards the primal aspect of mankind. It therefore becomes incompatible with the formula of the new aeon.

Cigar or no cigar? :lol:
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Postby Aum418 » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:02 am

As the sun is a symbol of Tiphareth, Sirius is a symbol of that 'sun behind the sun' or Kether. Dont get into a ridiculous search for aliens on Sirius or that anything of worth is on the physical star. Its a symbol.

If you are familiar with the Gnostic Mass, you might want to re-consider these lines as referring to this Sirus/Kether idea as being the sun behidn the sun:

Thou who art I, beyond all I am, / Who hast no nature and no name, / Who art, when all but Thou are gone / Thou, centre and secret of the Sun, / Thou, hidden spring of all things known / And unknown, Thou aloof, alone, / Thou, the true fire within the reed/Brooding and breeding, source and seed / Of life, love, liberty, and light, / Thou beyond speech and beyond sight, etc....

65 & 210,
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Postby Heru » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:48 am

aum418 wrote:As the sun is a symbol of Tiphareth, Sirius is a symbol of that 'sun behind the sun' or Kether. Dont get into a ridiculous search for aliens on Sirius or that anything of worth is on the physical star. Its a symbol.

I was talking about the implications of the Emperor and Star on the 28th path not the 15th. But thanks for the input anyway.
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Postby Rey De Lupos » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:19 pm

Sirius is a symbol of that 'sun behind the sun' or Kether.

Now are we talking about the Writings of Keneth Grant or is this referential to other 'pertinent' material?

Where does this reality come from to suggest that Sirius is KETHER?

Hmm..... [wink]
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Postby gmugmble » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:23 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:the Sirius symbolism is actually in all three Paths connecting Tifereth to the Supernals.

Also, on another note :), how is the Sirius symbolism in the path of The Lovers?
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:06 am

gmugmble wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:the Sirius symbolism is actually in all three Paths connecting Tifereth to the Supernals.

Also, on another note :), how is the Sirius symbolism in the path of The Lovers?

Simplest answer: Sirius' actual longitude is 19° Gemini.
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Postby Frater SI » Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:24 am

Thank you for that its always something that bugged me .. A friend pointed me in the Direction of Al's Thoth, but Duquette explains it far more lucidly ..

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Postby Heru » Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:28 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:Simplest answer: Sirius' actual longitude is 19° Gemini.

And Sirius is a binary star - The Twins.
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Postby Malaclypse » Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:18 am

Isn't it even three stars? When I read The Sirius Mystery the man said "Sirius C", which was found sometime in the seventies.
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Postby Wizardiaoan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:10 pm

I disagree with Jim E. here, so let me state it:

"All these old letters of my Book are aright" to me means they are freaking aright, don't be so stupid ass as to mess with them. Anyone with half a brain can see Crowley just messed up the ancient Hebraic order. He should have castrated himself from the Order like he did Parsifallen for his B.S., Bachelors of Shitty Understanding!

The correct interpretation is that indeed all the Hebrew letters are aright, but Tzaddi is not named in English "The Star". My successful solution to this verse instigated my Liber DCLXVI Ordeal of 1999, where I was made to discover all the True English Tarot Names (which was for me to do, & which would have bogged down Liber Legis by so listing). It would be stupid for me to discourse it further, as I know now how little anyone truly cares.

But the correct solution I can simply reveal as:

Key XVII = 18, 90 = THE SUN = Aquarius = Purple.
Key XVIII = 19, 100 = THE MOON = Pisces = Red-Violet.
Key XIX = 20, 200 = THE STAR = Sun = Yellow.

So in short it is that Key XIX is THE STAR, not Key XVII. Note also how these names have a nice flow now, as THE SUN, THE MOON, THE STAR, & that Aquarius-Pisces are now nicely conjoined as THE SUN & THE MOON.

Now I realize this sails over the head, & is incomplete without my whole Liber, but I still know it is important that I expose the sham begun by Crowley & continued by his blind followers, for which this AA is a Prime example.

Yes, TVRANNIS TERRIBILIS's Light is Extreme...ly True, even as USTATOS = 121 as "last, extreme" in Serial Greek. I would suggest leaving L.A. for some more natural AIThHR...since it does not seem conducive to Truth.

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Postby Heru » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:39 pm

Wizardiaoan wrote:It would be stupid for me to discourse it further, as I know now how little anyone truly cares.

Wow!!! You're psychic. :shock:
Wizardiaoan wrote:Now I realize this sails over the head

Yep. :P
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Postby Scarecrow » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:52 pm

The light descends on the Emperor from the upper right corner, and he is looking away from it.

The woman in the Star card pours water from the upper right corner where she looks directly into the vessel of liquid (light?)

Could this explain the significance of the switch?

I'm feasting on the idea that the Emperor has an HGA on his shoulder telling him what to do... and the Star is the HGA looking forward directly into the realm of possibilities and transforming them to her will.

Food for thought - other ideas are most welcome...
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Postby Sphynx » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:07 pm

Wizardiaoan wrote:... it is important that I expose the sham begun by Crowley & continued by his blind followers, for which this AA is a Prime example.

Hey! Thanks for the exposé - It really means a lot to ALL of us (pardon me if I'm speaking for someone who disagrees).
I guess we'll all just have to burn our Crowley books, resign from the A.'.A.'. (assuming we're not off-centerline on the Tree), and go looking for some new MahaGuru. Got anyone in mind Wizard?
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Postby Wizardiaoan » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:51 am

I apologize for my initial post (as well as one or two others); I underwent an extreme initiation in mid-march which made my Will too severe for a time. I think the A.A. Jim represents is doing good for and by the universe.

I do not advise blind devotion to any mahaguru, nor to any idea or concept without consideration--yes I disagree with Crowley on a few points, but still think his output is very excellent. I accept Liber Legis as the aeonic tantra.

I do not think Crowley interpreted Tzaddi being "not the Star" correct, as I state in my original post. This finding in 1999 made me receive a book of the "correct" English names for the Trumps, as well as an expansion of the Trumps to a 30-fold system; it is called Liber DCLXVI Satan. It uses 5 as Aries and 18/90 as Aquarius, and the normal attributes for the first 22 Keys. Then 23-30 are:

23/500: Water of Earth
24/600: Earth of Earth
25/700: Air of Earth
26/800: Fire of Earth
27/900: Earth (elemental)
28/1000: Earth (planetary)
29/2000: Spirit
30/3000: Quintessence

This Key 30 is "the Key of it all", whose symbol is the 4774 Sword (this glyph is the solution to AL III:47). Its color is black as that which contains all within it. I think this Tarot sequence is rather like the magical periodical table, which is why I think all alphabets conform to it by place value.

I now think there are 37 Keys to the universe (one proof is that this sums the Tarot to 93 as 56+37). These also represent the stages of the soul's enlightenment, for instance 22 is enlightenment in Binah, the last Key of a Magister Templi. 23-28 are all within Chokmah, and this reveals that the Magus grade is all about the earthing of the magical current. 29 is solely in Kether. 30 is that of the Ain.

To follow me on my Keys 31-37 you have to accept my re-arrangement of Sanskrit past 25 = M. I have been able to esoterically arrange Sanskrit correctly past its 25th letter M based on its Katapayadhi values, which are actually just the 0-9 serial Sanskrit code. See Hulse's "The Eastern Mysteries" Sanskrit chapter for reference.

This results in:

26-Sh
27-S
28-H
29-L (the Pali L)
30-Ks (the conjunction K + Sh as 1+26 as Alpha and Omega)
31-Y
32-R
33-L
34-V
35-S

See there is a discrepancy in the traditional order of Sanskrit past its 25th letter M with the Katapayadhi values. For example Y is the 26th consonant but is valued at 1, and this poses a discrepancy as the 0-9 serial value of 26 is 6, not 1. I thus posit Y as the 31st consonant. This changes the letters upon the chakras beginning with Swadhisthana. One proof of this esoteric order is with Ajna which has S & V placed upon it now, the two consonants composing the word ShiVa as the third eye center!

As I say, I think there is 37 Keys so now I can list my attributions based upon the Sanskrit letters:

31/4000: (Y) Air of Quintessence
32/5000: (R) Fire of Quintessence
33/6000: (L) Water of Quintessence
34/7000: (V) Earth of Quintessence
35/8000: (S) Spirit of Quintessence

36/9000: Sun of Quintessence
37/10000: Moon of Quintessence

I attribute 30-35 in the Ain Soph Aur, 36 in the Ain Soph, and 37 in the Ain.

This system opens up basically a 36-fold degree initiatory system, 37 being seen as the point in the circle. The system is in line with the AA grade wise, I began receiving it as a system of initiation with my own. It is called "The Nv Free Masonry", its emblem being a delta triangle with an N in it (the v is inversed as the triangle/pyramid's apex). I am ritually enunciating it on the spring equinox of 2010. Here are how the degrees/keys conform to the spheres:

1-4: Malkuth
5-7: Yesod
8-9: Hod
10: Netzach
11-16: Tiphareth
17-19: Geburah
20: Chesed
21-22: Binah
23-28: Chokmah
29: Kether
30-35: Ain Soph Aur
36: Ain Soph
37: Ain

You can read more about my Liber DCLXVI and 4774 as Key 30 as the Key of it all per AL III:47 here:

http://www.4shared.com/u/zkrgqsq/3498f1 ... oocom.html
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Postby Scarecrow » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:05 am

Wizardiaoan wrote:I do not think Crowley interpreted Tzaddi being "not the Star" correct, as I state in my original post. This finding in 1999 made me receive a book of the "correct" English names for the Trumps, as well as an expansion of the Trumps to a 30-fold system; it is called Liber DCLXVI Satan.


Just curious - how did you "receive" Liber DCLXVI. I'm asking for a detailed explanation of your manner or receiving this text.

Also why did you name it 666 Satan?

PS: I tried to download your ebook but the file didn't have a file type (ie. what type of a file is it?)
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Tarot Attributions

Postby Tantraman » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:44 pm

In trying to understand the Mystery are we allowing for a living science? Would attributions change with the Aeon? Each student in their Aeon, place and culture comes to understand in a way that fits them. A living corpus of knowledge would change as all living things change. Yes? The name "Tree of Life" may be more than it seems. A living tree, growing, changing etc...

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hhhmmmm.....well, things change. From time to time they stay put long enough to measure or begin to understand.....then they change again. Part of me is in there somewhere.
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Postby Wizardiaoan » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:44 pm

Scarecrow wrote:Just curious - how did you "receive" Liber DCLXVI. I'm asking for a detailed explanation of your manner or receiving this text. Also why did you name it 666 Satan?

It began as an automatic writing session listing new creative names for the Tarot Keys. The process is detailed ad nauseum in my document. I changed the documents to word docs and they should all open now in proper format. I call it received due to the inspiration of the time, but changes were made through about a month. Also one change was made nearly a year later.

666 Satan is used for a few reasons. I was interpreting the tablet of Tarot names as a type of stele 718 as 359/359; that there is a macrocosmic Satan as universal Creator, the human being the microcosmic Satan. The full title is "Liber DCLXVI Satan by Satan The Phosphorescent Magus". The 30 Keys form the Body of Satan. Key 30 is named Satan. Its sigil, like the water waves of Aquarius, I posited as the 4774 sword. 47+74 = 121 = SATAN spelt in full in Hebrew as 11x11. Satan by equalling 121 in full I think is proven to be one of the most potent God Names in the universe.

666 are the Keys as kalas of light, the divisions of light and energy. 666 equals THE FISH, my Key 14. 666 = LOVE + WILL. I think "666 Satan" basically represents the lightening flash of inspiration, which is communication from the macrocosm.

In the verse it says "my prophet shall reveal it to the wise". I think Liber Legis is speaking of a future prophet here.
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Postby Oliver P » Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:49 pm

Scarecrow wrote:The light descends on the Emperor from the upper right corner, and he is looking away from it.

The woman in the Star card pours water from the upper right corner where she looks directly into the vessel of liquid (light?)

Could this explain the significance of the switch?

I'm feasting on the idea that the Emperor has an HGA on his shoulder telling him what to do... and the Star is the HGA looking forward directly into the realm of possibilities and transforming them to her will.

Food for thought - other ideas are most welcome...


Isn't the direction of the Emperor's light considered a remnant of the pre-switch position and the reference to it (Book of Thoth account of the Emperor last paragraph P78 of the Weiser edition) considered a famous "error" or oversight by AC?

He refers it to the "Word" as white light descending from Chokmah to Tiph'areth. (I've always thought of the incarnation of a divine avatar, a "Word made Flesh" as part of the symbolism of that path).

Taking that implied placement at face value, AC is at the same time insistent that the Emperor is Tzaddi. The only way we can reconcile those two seemingly incompatible statements is to monkey with the order of the letters on the Tree. Put Tzaddi up with the Emperor on the Chokmah-Tiph'areth path and Heh with the Star on the 28th path (Netsach-Yesod). Bear with me, I'm just experimenting here.

I notice immediately that the three paths converging on Yesod from above are HRS...No, can't be a piece of "Horus" symbolism, surely, there'd be a Vau in there somewhere. (Why did those Greeks and Romans tack supurious S's onto the end of words from other languages? Osiris, Horus, Elias, Jesus, Ozymandias...).

I'm glad to see, in passing, that DuQuette (and probably other sources he's relying on) agree with an intuitive image I've always had of the Samekh path as the arrow of Sagittarius, to do in one of my perspectives, with those moments (well known to a journalist) when apparent contradictions suddenly clarify and you can see the way ahead and the "target" clearly.

“The path of Samekh, like the arrow of Sagittarius, pierces the rainbow veil of Paroketh and shoots up the middle pillar to Tiphereth, the abode of the Holy Guardian Angel“" - The Magick of Aleister Crowley, P124.

Perhaps we can see Horus rather as the bowman, tensing those H,R bowstrings and firing an arrow into the heart of the old Aeon....

Gematria: The three Yesod paths, HRS = 265 and the corresponding three paths converging from above on Tiph’areth are GZTs = 100.

Looks as though a year is being divided here. Quick calculation; the 100th day of a 365-day year is – April 10; Ra Hoor Khuit day! But hey, wait a minute; 1904 was a leap year, which makes the 100th day Hadit Day and means 365 is not relevant. Perhaps we can say 100 days, then the day of revelation of Ra Hoor Khuit, then the remaining 265 days (I’m reluctant to let go of this “insight” :-) ).

More generally, we have seen in recent decades a replacement of the former respect for aristocracy by celebrity worship, even to the coining of the term “celebthority”. The “star” has in a real sense, replaced the “emperor”; and royalty are in turn driven to assume a celebrity mask in order to get their share of “air time”.

I’m very surprised too that there are so few juxtapositions of AL 1:3 with Andy Warhol’s famous quote about universal “stardom”.
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Just floating ideas here; like AC's nursery-rhyme "Interlude" in Book 4, I don't think this is a serious argument...but you never know :-)

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Postby Steven Cranmer » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:53 pm

Oliver P wrote:Quick calculation; the 100th day of a 365-day year is – April 10; Ra Hoor Khuit day! But hey, wait a minute; 1904 was a leap year, which makes the 100th day Hadit Day and means 365 is not relevant.

Hadit isn't without some Horus/solar symbolism, too. The Behedet mistranslation has been done to death in various online forums, but the simple symbol of the point at the center of the circle can be thought of as the Sun at the center, and the Earth's (365-day) circular orbit around it, no?

Perhaps we can say 100 days, then the day of revelation of Ra Hoor Khuit, then the remaining 265 days (I’m reluctant to let go of this “insight” :-) ).

I don't blame you! It's a neat insight. I've been known to harp on my own meager calendrical discoveries from time to time... :oops:

This also reminds me of Paul Foster Case's assertion that the Rosicrucian "Day C" might be celebrated on the 100th day after the vernal equinox. (C being Roman numeral 100.) This would put Cay C around June 28, which is on the border of the time period in which Corpus Christi may fall (to keep the Golden Dawn's choice of "Vault consecration day" from being totally irrelevant???)

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Postby Escarabajo » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:11 am

Here's a question I've been considering recently about this.

I know some authors look at the Tarot like a "tale" of manifestation starting from the Fool and ending up with the World. I know BOTA has a scheme called the Tarot Tableau, where the Fool is taken out, leaving 3 rows of 7 cards in consecutive order. The Emperor comes early on (obviously, #4) and is interpreted as an early stage of development.

Why would the Thoth tarot not relabel the Emperor's card number as 17, and the Star as 4? Isn't that only fair, to keep with the order of Path attributions? Weren't the card numbers of Strength and Justice swapped in the original tarot?

If my memory is correct, Crowley wrote in the Book of Thoth about this tzaddi-heh switching putting 3 goddess figures together: Priestess (2), Empress (3) , Star (therefore, 4) , which would imply the cards' numbers should also be swapped. :?:
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