Insanity and the Waking Dream

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Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Bereshith » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:24 am

The following quote is taken from the thread below:

http://heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10911&p=71574&#p71574

Jim Eshelman wrote:Witnessing psychological projections (which was the topic to which the above responded) is the single most powerful technique I know for seeing your own psyche in a mirror. The world is constantly reflecting you back at you. Step one is to see that this is so, and step two is to start looking into the mirror with an eye to seeing what you actually can see.

Subconsciuousness isn't asleep when the self-conscious mind is awake. Rather, the two are attentive riders in the front seat of the same car: Just because self-consciousness is driving doesn't mean that subconsciousness isn't engaged in the same conversation! Or (to turn the metaphor completely inside-out), subconsciousness and self-consciousness are the two windshields we are constantly looking out thrugh simultaneously. A consequence is that we are simultaneously awake, perceptive of our environment, etc., AND we are having a dream. The two mingle in the best story our psyches can create in the moment, and that story is invariably about us. It is equally true to say that we are still dreaming throughout the day as it is to say that we are awake.

What we term psychological projections are the dreams we are having when awake. They are the ever-present mirror we have to look into for self-discovery.


To begin, I'll (hopefully only briefly) refer to recent conversations found here on the board. Much has been made lately of my supposed (hypothetically medical and permanent) "mental condition" in attempts to discredit my arguments, regardless of their internal validity or demonstrable relationship to the topic.

Put briefly, I contend that what has been unquestionably experienced by myself as mania was the result of my uncontrolled emotional reaction to what are temporary intensifications of my "waking dream-life." The beginning of these periodic intensifications of my waking dream-life can be traced to a very specific period in my life when I undertook certain self-created magical/mystical operations performed in an attempt to know and understand the gods of Liber Legis while knowing very little of the proper controls or viewpoint under which such operations are properly constructed and made safe.

I will not suggest that these periodic intensifications of my waking dream-life have attenuated. However, I do now claim to be able to take a more rational, internal step back from these experiences and to be able to manage them without significant disruptions to my personal goals, family, or work-life. As such significant disruptions are required for the diagnosis of psychological disorder, I do now reject the diagnosis of psychological disorder as currently applicable to me. I also contend that such determinations are not appropriately made by those who merely disapprove of either my temperament or of the flares of dramatic emphasis present in my argumentation style.

On the other side of such experiences (and more to my actual point), I find myself very easily relating others who have had experiences of insanity, whether temporarily or more permanently. To me, it seems that the description (quoted above) of our waking dream-lives has within it the root understanding of all experiences of psychological disorder, regardless whether their impetus is magical practice, developmental stage-fixation, abnormal neurological "wiring," or biochemical imbalance. When the waking-dream reigns unquestioned in the mind and is allowed to be understood as the primary determiner of what is real, the result is a disconnection from the other methods of knowing and, ultimately, a disconnection from reality. Indeed, this is the very thing interaction with my experiences taught me, under the symbolism of Saturn.

Yes, I have been there and done that, and it was a tremendous learning experience.

I do have more thoughts brewing, but for now, I'd like to stop in order both to gather them and to leave this post brief enough to encourage reading and comprehension.
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Smokey Monking » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:08 am

Real insanity and losing of sense of reality have much to do with losing the sense of the real difference between right and wrong. And that have nothing to do with more or less waking dreams presents in our life, in fact most of that respected psychiatrists and judgemental doctors dicks, so firm in their assertions of reality and sanity, are no further from the true insanity than any of the common crazy heads could be.
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Bereshith » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:21 am

SmokingMonkey wrote:Real insanity and losing of sense of reality have much to do with losing the sense of the real difference between right and wrong. And that have nothing to do with more or less waking dreams presents in our life, in fact most of that respected psychiatrists and judgemental doctors dicks, so firm in their assertions of reality and sanity, are no further from the true insanity than any of the common crazy heads could be.


Perhaps, but we would have to get into a discussion of the ultimate relativity of morality versus the ability or inability of a person to conform to such social constructs in a way that doesn't get them locked up. I appreciate the thought, but it's not really where I'd like to go. Still gathering thoughts....
Last edited by Bereshith on Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Takamba » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:32 am

"Right and wrong" used here may not be correct - it certainly isn't necessarily about morality when we discuss disorder.

For instance, someone may possess the moral understanding (belief) that feeding the hungry is a good thing. But if it is part of a disorder, a person may maniacally, impulsively, or obsessively insist on feeding the hungry, maybe even to their own detriment of good health.

Not "right or wrong," but disordered - detrimental. The "right and wrong" definition of insanity is only as it applies in legal matters (such as the above described disordered person could not make a legal claim of the inanity defense if he was also found to have murdered someone unless he suffered some other disorder that made him believe that killing was the right thing to do).

Bereshith seems to be describing himself as someone who had taken the impressions he'd built onto his world (what Jim described as the unconscious infusion even on our conscious awareness) and went maniacal in his understanding of them (in his waking-dream, living in a nightmare).

Interesting post, Bereshith. As you may be interested in exploring and writing further, I am interested in reading.
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Smokey Monking » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:27 am

Well I´m not interested in semantics too, I think what I mean is pretty clear in general lines, but anyway, I´m not exactly talking about moral, or at least, not of the common moral. About a more appropriate moral for the heterogeneous variety of mankind, allowing maximum freedom as possible and so on. perhaps. If you Bereshith want to go to a determined place, be more clear about where you want to go and we will follow you happily. ;)
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Bereshith » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:15 am

Takamba wrote:Bereshith seems to be describing himself as someone who had taken the impressions he'd built onto his world (what Jim described as the unconscious infusion even on our conscious awareness) and went maniacal in his understanding of them (in his waking-dream, living in a nightmare).


Yes, thank you, Takamba. Precisely.

Further, it is my understanding that, no matter one's individual, ultimate conclusions concerning the powers at work in magic ritual, the symbolism and order of initiatory rituals are intentionally woven together in such a way as to inject specific ideas into an individual's conscious and unconscious mind.

As I understand it, the result of such an injection of ideas creates an evolving "conversation" between a person's conscious and unconscious understanding of the symbolism. The "voice" of the unconscious mind in this evolving conversation is able to be experienced in the content of both normal sleeping-dreams as well as in the waking-dream (understood as the filter of meaning automatically projected onto everyday events). At times, both these forms of "dreaming" may be experienced variously as glorious, loving, self-revelatory, frightening, instructive, critical, or argumentative.

Personally, the power of the "voice" (not literal) of the unconscious mind came as a complete surprise to me. More correctly, I was first overwhelmed by the reality of its very existence at all in my waking life, and then, as I grew more accustomed to its existence, I was still overwhelmed by its power. I had no conception at all of the degree to which it is possible for the unconscious mind to fully reinterpret the meanings of everyday normal speech and events and to present these reinterpretations before the conscious mind as the actual and intended meaning of such events.

[Smoking Monkey: Noted. My comment was intended only as further clarification. Also, still gathering thoughts...]
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby danica » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:20 am

I love and have always loved to dream and enjoy very much every dream experience, no matter how horrible, frightening it is, no matter what happens in it. I suppose a part of me 'knows' (in some specific manner, different from the rational knowing of daily life) that it's " a dream" - so I dive into every dream experience, enjoying the intensity of it as such.

but there was one dream, in my teen years (unfortunately, I can not remember the exact year this happened; but if my lost diaries from that period appear again, I hope to get that info...) which was a real nightmare for me. in it, I was cast-off from all other people in my surroundings, because everyone regarded me as insane; I knew that I was not, and that the essential problem was that I was not understood by any other person; the feeling of loneliness, desolation, was unbearable. then, I meet my mother, and she seems to understand me, seems to know that I am not insane; there is an overwhelming relief and happiness in this; but immediately to this, it turns out that she is acting as if she does understand me, while she actually was there to lure me into an institution - she cooperated with the others, in order to lock me down or something like that.
this was a horrible experience. so for years I thought about that dream. and thought about insanity - what it is and where and how the demarcation 'line' can be drawn between the healthy psyche and the one that is not.
I think one prominent characteristic of unhealthy psyche is something that can be called loosing boundaries. or better: not being aware of the existence and function of phenomena called boundaries.

in the light of your line of thought here, Bereshith, I'd say that this Waking Dream experiment/experience is a conscious and attentional play with the boundaries, which puts you in a situation that looks like being on an open sea without a boat. it's bringing yourself purposely into the highly dis-balanced 'state' (which is not a state but motion - and that makes the balance, or makes the balance again) in order to widen the horizon of that which you feel as yourself, essentially, to reach toward the Unknown. how to stay sane, meaning healthy, and go through this kind of experience, that is - how not to sink? in this metaphor, the key is, I think, in being aware of the Unity in the Diversity of the motions you make while attempting to stay on the surface of the deep waters, and to move in a one continued motion - to swim :D ; if there is partiality, unconnected bits and parts, if the unity is disrupted, if the line-of-motion stops - you sink.
the awareness of unity acts like an anchor (and perhaps sail at the same time), a specific ever-moving anchor, that firmly holds you still, although there is noting but moving all the time. thus, it keeps you Whole, and being integrated into the Whole, while existing as a separate being.
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Bereshith » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:50 am

Danica wrote:in the light of your line of thought here, Bereshith, I'd say that this Waking Dream experiment/experience is a conscious and attentional play with the boundaries, which puts you in a situation that looks like being on an open sea without a boat. it's bringing yourself purposely into the highly dis-balanced 'state' (which is not a state but motion - and that makes the balance, or makes the balance again) in order to widen the horizon of that which you feel as yourself, essentially, to reach toward the Unknown.


Honestly, at the time, I had been deeply considering the possible interconnectivity between time, space, matter, and consciousness. The boundaries between these seemingly separate things were completely unknown to me. They had to be learned. And that was a very trippy, scary (for me), and highly symbolic conversation (and argument) to have with all the elements of my unconscious mind as it projected all these things (including the gods, angels, and devils) on the speech and events of my waking life. "Am I in another universe? In between possible universes? In hell? In an alternate timeline?" - That kind of thing.

Thanks for your post. You have helped me begin to formulate an actual question for discussion. Still in progress...
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Bereshith » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:02 pm

At this point, we are getting into concepts that I am beginning to find more difficult to express, so please feel free to comment and let this take on the form of a discussion.

I now need to make a distinction between two primary aspects of mind that are both considered part of the unconscious. I refer you to tarot trump VI, the Lovers. Since I have been instructed primarily using the BOTA deck, which is very similar to the traditional Rider-Waite deck, I'll refer to the instruction I have received. In this instruction, the male character symbolizes the Self-Conscious mind, the female character represents the part of the unconscious mind more traditionally understood as the Subconscious mind, and the Angel represents the part of the unconsciousness mind traditionally understood as the Superconscious mind.

The instruction, as I am attempting to faithfully relate it, says that all experiences of the Superconscious mind come to the Self-Conscious mind through the medium of the Subconscious mind. Or, in whiter words, the Angel speaks through the medium of the Subconscious mind. But both the Angel (Superconsciousness mind) and the Subconscious mind are understood to exist together as aspects of the totality of the unconscious mind.

However, not everything the Subconscious mind presents is a message from the Angel (Superconsciousness).

That's the problem. It's difficult to discern what information from the unconscious mind represents truth. The reason that this is complicated is that the Subconscious mind absolutely will provide Self-Consciousness with conclusions based on the impressions that Self-Consciousness makes upon it. So, sometimes the information coming from the unconscious mind represents Superconscious Truth while other times it is merely the logically constructed reflection of the impressions that Self-Consciousness has repeatedly made upon the Subconscious mind.

The Subconscious mind itself does not seem readily able to make this distinction (though there are techniques that attempt to correct for this by attempting to release it from incorrect impressions).

But this is my point: The Subconscious mind always presents information to the Self-Conscious mind as if it is true. It feels real, it seems true, but the outcome can indeed be madness and a parting of ways with reality.

The previous debate on another thread about the ability or inability to trust one's personal experiences applies directly to this.

First, I think that many people fear the techniques associated with activation of the unconscious mind precisely because they fear that they will be lost in a flood of impressions about which they have no method of determining the reality. For some, this results in a before-the-experience mistrust and rejection of anything the unconscious may ever present to the Self-Conscious mind, leading to a rejection of any techniques that will intentionally stimulate this result.

Second, a question: What standards for truth-testing are there? Besides the material ones, I mean, if there are any possible.

I must admit, some conclusions to which I have come are the result simply of repeated argumentation with the information coming from the unconscious, with the result that I have repeatedly been ...overcome and dominated by what I can only understand as the experience of a "presence" and/or "intelligence" beyond my Self-Conscious ability even to demonstrate, much less command. I experience it as entirely capable of organizing my daily experience and its interpretations at will. As I experience it, time, space, and events seem like its play-toys. I experience it as impossible to conquer. And it was only as I admitted its presence and begged for sanity from it that sanity returned. I find it impossible to distinguish between it and any previous conceptions I had of "God" from my older Christian spiritual meme. I have simply stopped arguing against its existence, and I find this to be the only way forward.

What I have described cannot be tested in a lab by a skeptic who attempts to do me the favor of testing my hypothesis - by attempting to disprove it - though this seems to be the current standard of science.

The argument here lately seems to stem from Crowley's instruction not to take any experience for what it first seems. But, if we are to believe the report of his reception of Liber Legis, he does seem (eventually, at least) to have allowed himself to come to personal convictions/conclusions about the real nature of his experiences.

So, in your opinions, what standards may be used to come to actual conclusions about the nature of potentially existing beings like Aiwass or the Great White Brotherhood - if all of the proof comes through the medium of the unconsious mind, without concrete evidence? If we are to demand concrete evidence, what kind of concrete evidence could be demanded?

This is a real question of mine, and I would really like to know what other people have to say. I promise I'll be respectful (unless, of course, you start trying to tell my I'm crazy or stupid).

[The perfectionist in me reserves the right to make corrections in wording after the original posting, so please expect at least a few corrections as we go.]
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Uni_Verse » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Going to shoot out a few things that immediately came to the surface...

An important aspect of meditation and mystical practices is, in essence, to make the practitioner passive.
To make the mind a mirror -
Which is what comes to mind when trying to discern these projections of "others"
From what has its source of origination in our selves.

Thus, when we actively cause the body and mind to be passive,
We may then assume (rightfully so?) that what is picked up,
What is reflected back to us through the World-Mirror
Are glimpses of the very essence of Self,
Particularly our Self, in relation to its relative part with in the Whole
Fitting into this place, we can let go of Self -
To the anchor, for we develop the certainty that is our natural course,
Where the coin shall fall once its been flipped;
Once again the notions of Self, if true, relate to how one shall naturally fall
And into what one place one naturally falls into
As such is you as you were created by the Super conciousness
Only becoming lost when we resist, we recoil saying
"That is not I!" So, then, what are you?
Helplessly adrift in the Waking Dream
There is only one verse,
sung in infinite ways.
-
"Here!"
I come or came?
I sung!
To seeD the Way
-
God sings,
WE experience:
THE UNIVERSE!
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Takamba » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:38 pm

I'm going to answer you this way:

The man and the woman in this Aeon live life as partners. Equal share. Maybe in the previous Aeon, the man was more in charge, and in the Aeon before that, maybe the woman - but it has always been the Hierophant who has come down from his Hermitage who consecrated the union.

The left eye is linked to the left brain. The right eye to the right brain. Yes, everything above the neck is the opposite from what is below the neck (put that on your Tree of Life and smoke it). The Mind behind your eyes is like the HGA.

You have to see accurately with both eyes in order to get stereo vision.

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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Uni_Verse » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:13 am

Pat brings up a good point about balance (the crux of the Work)
One may say the ultimate goal of yoga is to live the Waking Dream
To Be He Who Walks But Is Not Of This Earth
Differentiating between samadhi and its super state, permenant super consciousness
A state closet to the notion of objectivity one may attain to while incarnate
(Whether possessing a body or not - perhaps closest while existing?)
As what you are is not what you really are but is rather close, not really different (mind boggling)

For you are a Silent Observer, without Lust - carried forth by primal swirling


Though I keep speaking of the End, The END, what of the start?
( I am trying to remember )
There is only one verse,
sung in infinite ways.
-
"Here!"
I come or came?
I sung!
To seeD the Way
-
God sings,
WE experience:
THE UNIVERSE!
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Bereshith » Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:15 pm

Patthana Gati wrote:Before time began...



BRAShITh

AUGMN

:)
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Uni_Verse » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:46 am

Patthana Gati wrote:*Gone Fishing*.

:-)


You're frightened of leaving
This truly gone fishing amalgam,
Go fetch your gun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRYhWFBHpkM
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God sings,
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby danica » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:47 am

Bereshith wrote:
However, not everything the Subconscious mind presents is a message from the Angel (Superconsciousness).

That's the problem. It's difficult to discern what information from the unconscious mind represents truth.


do you have Visions & Voices ? if you do, see 6th Aethyr, § 10. - 11. with Jim's commentaries.

those phenomena that lead you to Beauty (incite you, instruct you...etc.) to feel it, see it, produce it - those are the rays of Truth as we can see it below the Abyss
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Bereshith » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:57 am

Thanks. I'll check that out.
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Re: Insanity and the Waking Dream

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:38 am

Bereshith wrote:However, not everything the Subconscious mind presents is a message from the Angel (Superconsciousness).

Sound observation.

This is addressed in one's training. First, one has to open up to witnessing and interacting with subconsciousness. A further step (a little further along, once that interaction is well developed) is passing the suggestion to subconsciousness that it reflect truly from superconsciousness. That starts a new leg of the journey.

To elaborate: Something not usually mentioned is that the Knowledge & Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel begins as an experience that transforms our relationship to Y'sod, not Tifereth. This is why the symbols and dialogues are so sexual, intimate, union-based - it is a transformation of our relationship to shared intimacy, to a sense of connection. It is only indirectly a transformation of the ego, in that the ego is given a new dimension of perspective from the profundity of the experience. Consider Crowley's description of the HGA as "The Holy Guardian Angel is the Unconscious Creature Self – the Spiritual Phallus" - that's Yesod language. Or the longer passage, from comments in Liber Samekh:

The main purpose of the Ritual is to establish the relation of the subconscious self with the Angel in such a way that the Adept is aware that his Angel is the Unity which expresses the sum of the Elements of that Self, that his normal consciousness contains alien enemies introduced by the accidents of environment, and that his Knowledge and Conversation of His Holy Guardian Angel destroys all doubts and delusions, confers all blessings, teaches all truth, and contains all delights.

Why does it seem that the dialogue is between the Angel and the Ruach? It is because the pattern of interacting with subconsciousness has been long, and solidly, established.

There is a powerful symbol of this subtly placed within the traditional Golden Dawn Neophyte structure. Three officers down the middle axis synmbolize Neshamah, Ruach, and Nephesh. The first two (Hierophant and Hegemon) face west. The Hiereus, in the west, faces east. The Hegemon has to take various actions (say, picking up a scepter) exactly when the Hierophant does so but is unable to see the Hierophant directly. The only way the Hegemon (Ruach) knows to do this is by watching the Hiereus (Nephesh), who can directly see the Hierophant (Neshamah) and reflect truly.

Whether this works depends on how true the Hiereus is in mirroring the Hierophant.

Crossing the Abyss is then a direct infusion of Neshamah into Ruach, overflooding its previous boundaries &c. Therefore, the symbols of the approach to this are all symbols of the sword, Air, fragmentation, spilling of blood, and all sorts of things one can find in Liber 418. That is, symbols of Ruach - Air, sword, Sun - are first hyper-stimulated and then undergo transformation.

FWIW
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