Tropical vs sidereal

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Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Coagvla » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:42 pm

Hey Brothers and Sisters,

I would like to get some info about sidereal vs tropical astrology. For example how they work (especially relating to the southern hemisphere) , whether one is better than the other or if they have have different uses in different situations and how they effect the birth chart.

I also want to let everyone know how impressed I am with everyone who posts her. I truly get a sense if how intelligent, dedicated and caring the people here are and that I really get the sense of a true 'Thelemic community'. This is very valuable and appreciated.
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:54 pm

Hemisphere doesn't matter for Sidereal. (In fact, it doesn't matter if you're on Earth.)

One better than the other? Well, the Tropical zodiac is pure fiction, and the Sidereal is a fact of nature. Does that answer your question. No, not different uses: the Tropical has no validity of any kind.

Go to www.solunars.org and read the introductory essays, them click and go to the forum.
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Coagvla » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:39 am

Thanks Jim,

Those are some very strong views, so, given my respect for your knowledge and experience, I am going to start doing some research. Also, am I to gather from what you're saying that the sidereal zodiac is the only astrological system the Magician need concern himself with?
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:06 am

Coagvla wrote:Those are some very strong views, so, given my respect for your knowledge and experience, I am going to start doing some research. Also, am I to gather from what you're saying that the sidereal zodiac is the only astrological system the Magician need concern himself with?

I would certainly say that, yes.

On the site I recommended, start with the Essays link at the top, and the first two articles in particular. That will show you the basis for the claims I made.
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Coagvla » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:54 am

Just been looking at those articles Jim and having a look at my sidereal birth chart, and wow. The sidereal idea makes so much sense, but as the article says, it is quite diffficult to employ an entirely new system if one has spent years working on the traditional tropical system. I know this is a big part of why I haven't explored this too deeply and I wanted to get some validation from someone like yourself before opening this can of worms. Even the brief initial readings make it fairly clear that the sidereal is the way to go and it has left me wondering why anyone would bother at all with the Tropical system, and I would very much recommend people that are serious about astrology look into this, (I am also aware that I may be the only person here who hasn't!!!). A brief look at my chart has revealed some deep Mystery and insight waiting to be brought into the light and I am actually very much looking forward to analysing all this. I can see great potential for making my astrological information less arbitrary. Being specific about the locations of planets, signs etc, not only in the birth chart but also on a day to day basis, obviously makes it a much more valuable and 'living approach'.

Also, I have always been a 'Scorpio rising' and this has been something I took a lot from and really identified with. Now, I'm a Cancer rising with Venus in Scorpio. Venus in Scorpio makes a lot of sense to me, however, I am a bit lost as to the correspondences associated with 'Cancer rising'. If anyone has any thoughts on or interperatations of Cancer as the rising sign I would very much like to hear them. Obviously the signifigance of the rising sign needs to be taken in the context of the whole chart, but I'd still love to hear peoples' ideas.

Cheers All.
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby mark0987 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:56 am

93,

I was a bit sceptical that the sun sign I had grown up thinking I was (gemini) was not actually the on I am. It turns out I'm a taurus sun with a virgo moon according to sidereal, and the qualities which go with them fit me perfectly, it was uncanny I was actually amazed it was like someone could predict my personalty. What's more is since I had no idea about it, it can't be a matter of me becoming that personality because that's what I was told I am.

I did some charts for my friends and they were all spot on for them as well. That was proof enough for me that sidereal was the 'true' astrological system. I however still have to analyse further than the sun and moon sign.

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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Coagvla » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:27 am

Cheers brother, that's helpful feedback. The rising sign is very important too and I strongly recommend you look into this and a brilliant place to start thinking about it is by checking out the verse that corresponds to your rising sign in Crowley's Treasure House of Images (CMXIII). Also, so I'm clear about this, can the Sun sign be different from the one He is allocated in tropical astrology.
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby danica » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:43 am

Coagvla wrote:The rising sign is very important too and I strongly recommend you look into this and a brilliant place to start thinking about it is by checking out the verse that corresponds to your rising sign in Crowley's Treasure House of Images (CMXIII).


regarding Treasure House of Images, the intention better corresponds to the Moon sign, I think
"Write, & find ecstasy in writing! Work, & be our bed in working! Thrill with the joy of life & death! Ah! thy death shall be lovely: whoso seeth it shall be glad. Thy death shall be the seal of the promise of our age long love. Come! lift up thine heart & rejoice! We are one; we are none."
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Coagvla » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:13 am

Hey Danica,

That's interesting, there is a note at the start of Treasure House that says that the Probationer shall memorise the chapter of the sign rising at the time of birth. Obviously, these chapters relate to many things and contain a great deal of info, but I think that this note suggests they can be used specifically as they relate to the rising sign. Can you tell me more about your idea that they refer to the Moon Signs?
And an interesting sideline for me:
Scorpio (which I always took to be my rising sign) corresponds to the chapter 'Twelve Denials' while Cancer to the 'Twelve Certidudes'
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby danica » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:05 am

Coagvla wrote: there is a note at the start of Treasure House that says that the Probationer shall memorise the chapter of the sign rising at the time of birth. Obviously, these chapters relate to many things and contain a great deal of info, but I think that this note suggests they can be used specifically as they relate to the rising sign.

Can you tell me more about your idea that they refer to the Moon Signs?


well, for Probationer, this text gives a guiding note to investigate your own identity through learning by heart the chapter corresponding to the rising sign (Ascendant), that is, to identify yourself with images corresponding to a particular Zodiacal sign - thus identifying with a particular set of images, through which in adoration you communicate with God. from Malkuth there is no direct path to Tipharet, but a Treasure House of images opens up us soon as one 'leaves' the immediate Malkuth, that is, gains an awareness of Yesod: the mirror of the Moon 'here' reflects Sun's rays.

but this idea is more personal reflection and intuition than a conclusion from observing others scientifically :D
maybe the best approach is to read the chapters for Ascending sign (Sidereal, of course), MC sign (it's the cusp of 10th house, or "the midst of heaven", Medium Coeli), Sun & Moon sign, so go with the one that feels most adequate at the moment.
"Write, & find ecstasy in writing! Work, & be our bed in working! Thrill with the joy of life & death! Ah! thy death shall be lovely: whoso seeth it shall be glad. Thy death shall be the seal of the promise of our age long love. Come! lift up thine heart & rejoice! We are one; we are none."
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Coagvla » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:47 am

Thank you Danica, there are some wonderful ideas in that post. I really feel that this whole sidereal gig is gonna be an interesting and insightful trip and it's so helpful to get ideas and read experiences from people in these forums.

This is probably a little off topic, but while we're talking about Treasure House, any thoughts about the beginning and ending being under the sign of the Moon, with the Sun and Star after the signs. Again some obvious symbols but also a lot of subtleties, would like to hear others meditations and insights (particularly yours Danica if you have a mind to).
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Starry Soul » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:25 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:the Tropical has no validity of any kind.

Does this mean Thelemic dating as normally used is wrong?
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby danica » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:13 am

Coagvla wrote:This is probably a little off topic, but while we're talking about Treasure House, any thoughts about the beginning and ending being under the sign of the Moon, with the Sun and Star after the signs. Again some obvious symbols but also a lot of subtleties, would like to hear others meditations and insights (particularly yours Danica if you have a mind to).


I'm not sure what do you mean by "beginning and ending being under the sign of the Moon, with the Sun and Star after the signs" - would you explain?
"Write, & find ecstasy in writing! Work, & be our bed in working! Thrill with the joy of life & death! Ah! thy death shall be lovely: whoso seeth it shall be glad. Thy death shall be the seal of the promise of our age long love. Come! lift up thine heart & rejoice! We are one; we are none."
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:11 am

Coagvla wrote:Also, I have always been a 'Scorpio rising' and this has been something I took a lot from and really identified with. Now, I'm a Cancer rising with Venus in Scorpio.

There is a calculation error somewhere. The above isn't possible. If you have Tropical Scorpio rising, then you either have Sidereal Libra or Scorpio rising. (Or, you made the mistake before and actually had Tropical Leo rising.)

I am a bit lost as to the correspondences associated with 'Cancer rising'.

From the character-related statistical studies I've seen, and personal observation, the Ascendant is so weak a factor as barely to deserve any attention. It's the outermost facade - not much more than "the clothes you put on for the occassion." How others see or label you in the most thoughtless, first impression way - at most.

Still, some statistically significant findings arose in the Gauquelin chart / character trait collection, and here is a link that summarizes it: http://solunars.net/viewtopic.php?f=16& ... 1068#p1059

I really wouldn't put much attention on it. Focus on the Sun and Moon signs and, to a lesser extent, Mars.
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:14 am

Starry Soul wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:the Tropical has no validity of any kind.

Does this mean Thelemic dating as normally used is wrong?

It's not "wrong." It's a way to record information. It's just not astrologically relevant.

I never use luminary sign positions when dating, in any case. I use the actual calendar. "2013 January 27, 11:12 AM" is far more useful to me in a diary entry than "Anno IV{20} Sun 8° AQU,Moon 15° LEO." (Or, for that matter, "Sun 13° CAP, Moon 20° CAN." They're equally useless when you are going back 10 years later to review your diary.)
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Coagvla » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:35 pm

You're right about the wrong rising sign Jim I'm pretty sure it's still Scorpio, not sure how I stuffed that up so much And no wonder it was so 'mysterious' haha

And Danica, I mean the symbols next to the first and last 3 chapters of the Treasure House
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Starry Soul » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:47 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Starry Soul wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:the Tropical has no validity of any kind.

Does this mean Thelemic dating as normally used is wrong?

It's not "wrong." It's a way to record information. It's just not astrologically relevant.

I never use luminary sign positions when dating, in any case. I use the actual calendar. "2013 January 27, 11:12 AM" is far more useful to me in a diary entry than "Anno IV{20} Sun 8° AQU,Moon 15° LEO." (Or, for that matter, "Sun 13° CAP, Moon 20° CAN." They're equally useless when you are going back 10 years later to review your diary.)

Yeah, that's the kind of wrong I had in mind. Astrological relevance is a good thing. :(

I too use normal calendar dates in diaries, since the point is to be practical and in most cases sign positions wouldn't tell me much. However, I do use Anno IVxx &c. in specific contexts because, well, I think it's beautiful, and it's nice to acknowledge the Thelemic period when something is published. Oh well.

The fact that a whole system that's being used for so much time is just plain wrong does open up a can of worms. Then again, many worms are edible and help survivors. At least I got to keep my Sun in Aquarius. :D

Edit: I am m-i-nd-b-l-o-w-n by the accuracy of sidereal astrology. Glad to know about it sooner than later.
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:58 pm

Sidereal was in use for thousands of years before the idea of a Tropical zodiac ever occurred to anyone. Apply your logic to that :)
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:02 pm

Patthana Gati wrote:You should be glad then that you don't have a constellation shaped like a giant penis in the sky any more.

LOL why? It seems to me that both people who have one of those, and people who want one of those (take your pick) would find that quite charming. :lol: :twisted: :lol:
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby mark0987 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:27 pm

You should be glad then that you don't have a constellation shaped like a giant penis in the sky any more.


That made me chuckle. :lol: I'd rather be a penis than a bull to be fair, I'd find having a giant penis in the sky related to me quite nice, rather than a stick figure doing a high kick which is what taurus looks like.

I've always wanted to use this emoticon so I am gonna go ahead and do it :bat:

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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:41 pm

mark0987 wrote:I'd rather be a penis than a bull to be fair

The ancient words for "bull" and "penis" were the same word. The oldest astrological symbol for Taurus was a cock and balls.

Since "bull" means the adult male of many mammalian species, and specifies that it be sexually intact and reproductively capable, the above isn't really a surprise, yeah?
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby mark0987 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:46 pm

93,

The ancient words for "bull" and "penis" were the same word. The oldest astrological symbol for Taurus was a cock and balls.

Since "bull" means the adult male of many mammalian species, and specifies that it be sexually intact and reproductively capable, the above isn't really a surprise, yeah?


Never knew that......so no matter what I was born a penis regardless of tropical or sidereal. It was just meant to be. :lol:

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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:07 pm

Try not to let your head get too swollen over it... That would be folly. :lol:

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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby Coagvla » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:35 pm

I know that I bull is the first thing that comes to mind when I look at my genitals ;-)
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Re: Tropical vs sidereal

Postby danica » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:30 am

Image

I'm a Ram allright :twisted:
"Write, & find ecstasy in writing! Work, & be our bed in working! Thrill with the joy of life & death! Ah! thy death shall be lovely: whoso seeth it shall be glad. Thy death shall be the seal of the promise of our age long love. Come! lift up thine heart & rejoice! We are one; we are none."
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