Secret Chiefs and attainment

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Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Hermes » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:24 am

I was wondering how is supposed to be related general attainment to communication with the Secret Chiefs. If there's a step where it is likely? Strong? Is there union with them?

Also, is it considered possible to become a Secret Chief?

And what is their "power"(or position in the tree)? More than Magus? Ipsissimus?
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Starry Soul » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:27 am

Frater Horus wrote:is it considered possible to become a Secret Chief?

Well, They have to come from somewhere, don't They?

And what is their "power"(or position in the tree)? More than Magus? Ipsissimus?

Supposedly one has to be at least a Magus to be able to be considered a Secret Chief.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby chris S » Sun Jun 16, 2013 2:24 am

How does one one know what a secret chief is.. Or is that a secret to you guys?
There are er.. contacts that will tell you nothing but bullshit.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Uni_Verse » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:12 am

Nuit wrote:22. Now, therefore, I am known to ye by my name Nuit, and to him by a secret name which I will give him when at last he knoweth me. Since I am Infinite Space, and the Infinite Stars thereof, do ye also thus. Bind nothing! Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby there cometh hurt.

23. But whoso availeth in this, let him be the chief of all!

Secret, for He makes no difference between one thing and any other.
Chief as He leads all to joy, such being His joy.
There is only one verse,
sung in infinite ways.
-
"Here!"
I come or came?
I sung!
To seeD the Way
-
God sings,
WE experience:
THE UNIVERSE!
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Los » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:32 pm

Frater Horus wrote:I was wondering how is supposed to be related general attainment to communication with the Secret Chiefs. If there's a step where it is likely? Strong? Is there union with them?


You can't communicate with the Secret Chiefs because there aren't any. You can, however, pretend that you're communicating with them.

Also, is it considered possible to become a Secret Chief?


It's possible to pretend that you're one.

And what is their "power"(or position in the tree)? More than Magus? Ipsissimus?


You'll have to consult the Monstrous Compendium A.'.A.'. supplement to get their stats. But since they have more hit dice than Orcus and Demogorgon put together, I would only use them in high-level campaigns.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:04 pm

But there is common sense data that we can let guide us in place of this nonsense about the supernals, right?
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Hermes » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:38 pm

Los wrote:
Frater Horus wrote:I was wondering how is supposed to be related general attainment to communication with the Secret Chiefs. If there's a step where it is likely? Strong? Is there union with them?


You can't communicate with the Secret Chiefs because there aren't any. You can, however, pretend that you're communicating with them.

Also, is it considered possible to become a Secret Chief?


It's possible to pretend that you're one.

And what is their "power"(or position in the tree)? More than Magus? Ipsissimus?


You'll have to consult the Monstrous Compendium A.'.A.'. supplement to get their stats. But since they have more hit dice than Orcus and Demogorgon put together, I would only use them in high-level campaigns.


As an objective seeker i may include this possibility: what if video games are real?

You think you're killing pixels whereas you're killing actual people by playing Battlefield.

You assemble real physical blocks in another dimension by playing Tetris...

A fictionary character could come out from the screen and shoot you physically if you believe too much it is not possible at all.

Or you could be swallowed by the screen, and end up in the olympics or something

Maybe better not to be sure just in case.

Dont you think it's pure logic?
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Hermes » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:42 pm

Avshalom Binyamin wrote:But there is common sense data that we can let guide us in place of this nonsense about the supernals, right?


Let who "guide" us? HGA?

Why "nonsense"?
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Simon Iff » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:17 am

Curious about Mr. Eshelman's position on this, too.

The way I understand it the highest triad of AA grades are evolutionary agents for the whole of mankind.

Masters of the Temple can found organisations like the AA.
Magi initiate a whole planet, kickstarting new 2000-year-paradigms or supporting or facilitating those paradigms if they are not the kickstarter.
Ipsissimi swear an oath "to retreat into their human person and stay silent about this attainment".

So, the grade of Ipsissimus is the most senior grade formulated (a chief) and secret too.

The Secret Chiefs are, in the AA measuring scale, of the grade of Ipisissimus. They initiate those who found things like the AA and initiate whole planets.

And Los: These people are out there. But you won't find them if you are not looking.
The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Saith with his voice of truth and calm:
I weave thee in the spinning charm
I lure thee with the billowy tune.

The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Hath parted from the darkling crowds
Hath joined the dwellers of the light
Hath made his passage into night
His pleasure on the earth to do
Amongst the living.

And again and again and again.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Los » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:27 am

Simon Iff wrote:And Los: These people are out there. But you won't find them if you are not looking.


And what makes you think that Secret Chiefs are "out there"?
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Simon Iff » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:27 am

Los wrote:And what makes you think that Secret Chiefs are "out there"?

Sadly, nothing that would convince you.

Just keep your eyes open.
The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Saith with his voice of truth and calm:
I weave thee in the spinning charm
I lure thee with the billowy tune.

The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Hath parted from the darkling crowds
Hath joined the dwellers of the light
Hath made his passage into night
His pleasure on the earth to do
Amongst the living.

And again and again and again.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Hermes » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:48 am

Simon Iff wrote:Curious about Mr. Eshelman's position on this, too.

The way I understand it the highest triad of AA grades are evolutionary agents for the whole of mankind.

Masters of the Temple can found organisations like the AA.
Magi initiate a whole planet, kickstarting new 2000-year-paradigms or supporting or facilitating those paradigms if they are not the kickstarter.
Ipsissimi swear an oath "to retreat into their human person and stay silent about this attainment".

So, the grade of Ipsissimus is the most senior grade formulated (a chief) and secret too.

The Secret Chiefs are, in the AA measuring scale, of the grade of Ipisissimus. They initiate those who found things like the AA and initiate whole planets.

And Los: These people are out there. But you won't find them if you are not looking.


Nice...

How do you understand "retreat into their human person"? doesnt it sound contradictory to the atainment itself?! what is supposed to happen doin so?
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Los » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:53 am

Simon Iff wrote:
Los wrote:And what makes you think that Secret Chiefs are "out there"?

Sadly, nothing that would convince you.


I was asking what convinced you.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:52 am

Frater Horus wrote:
Avshalom Binyamin wrote:But there is common sense data that we can let guide us in place of this nonsense about the supernals, right?


Let who "guide" us? HGA?

Why "nonsense"?

It was a tongue in cheek comment about denying the supernals, and making a false crown out of Da'ath.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby danica » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:40 am

Frater Horus, if you are not familiar with it, Chapter IX of Magick Without Tears deals with this subject:
http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-with ... wt_09.html
"Write, & find ecstasy in writing! Work, & be our bed in working! Thrill with the joy of life & death! Ah! thy death shall be lovely: whoso seeth it shall be glad. Thy death shall be the seal of the promise of our age long love. Come! lift up thine heart & rejoice! We are one; we are none."
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Simon Iff » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:02 am

danica wrote:http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_09.html

Re-reading that, I have nothing to add. Including to Los: You'll find your answer to the question you asked me in there.

Also, the secrecy of the Ipsissimus grade, plus what Crowley has to say about OIVZ in there, plus your (Los') discussion about the contradiction between OIVZ being his HGA and a sumerian man, resolves the contradiction, does it not.

Regards

Simon
The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Saith with his voice of truth and calm:
I weave thee in the spinning charm
I lure thee with the billowy tune.

The dead man Ankh-af-na-Khonsu
Hath parted from the darkling crowds
Hath joined the dwellers of the light
Hath made his passage into night
His pleasure on the earth to do
Amongst the living.

And again and again and again.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Takamba » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:49 am

Simon Iff wrote:
danica wrote:http://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_09.html

Re-reading that, I have nothing to add. Including to Los: You'll find your answer to the question you asked me in there.

Also, the secrecy of the Ipsissimus grade, plus what Crowley has to say about OIVZ in there, plus your (Los') discussion about the contradiction between OIVZ being his HGA and a sumerian man, resolves the contradiction, does it not.

Regards

Simon


I'm quite sure that Los will merely point out that this is part of the 33 or 50 percent of "it" Crowley got wrong. It's the simplest argument.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Los » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:11 pm

Simon Iff wrote:Re-reading that, I have nothing to add. Including to Los: You'll find your answer to the question you asked me in there.


No, I won't. I asked you what convinced you that the so-called "Secret Chiefs" actually exist. I can't learn what convinced you from reading what Crowley had to say. Now sure, maybe Crowley was convinced by something that also convinced you, or maybe it was reading Crowley itself that convinced you, but I can't learn that just by reading Crowley. You have to tell me if you want me to know.

Just to be super clear, I suspect that you've been convinced for really crappy reasons, but I'm willing to change my mind. Of course, I can't change my mind if you won't answer me, which of course you haven't done so far.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Los » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:15 pm

Takamba wrote:I'm quite sure that Los will merely point out that this is part of the 33 or 50 percent of "it" Crowley got wrong. It's the simplest argument.


Assuming that you're referring to Crowley's ramblings about invisible magic men guiding him, the optimist in me holds out the possibility that he was just deliberately making up those stories to flatter his own vanity and to impress the supremely gullible. 'Course, it's always possible that he was just simply wrong and not consciously faking. Or perhaps he was "losing it" at the end of his life.

I think it's unlikely we'll ever know for sure, but we can be reasonably sure that invisible goblins aren't directing the events of the world, allowing "Frater Superiors" to discover annotated books at just the right time, or delivering daydreams (oh, excuse me, "communications") that appoint people grand poobahs of the Elk Lodge.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Takamba » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:54 pm

Los wrote:Assuming that you're referring to Crowley's ramblings about invisible magic men guiding him, the optimist in me holds out the possibility that he was just deliberately making up those stories to flatter his own vanity and to impress the supremely gullible. 'Course, it's always possible that he was just simply wrong and not consciously faking. Or perhaps he was "losing it" at the end of his life.

I think it's unlikely we'll ever know for sure, but we can be reasonably sure that invisible goblins aren't directing the events of the world, allowing "Frater Superiors" to discover annotated books at just the right time, or delivering daydreams (oh, excuse me, "communications") that appoint people grand poobahs of the Elk Lodge.


LOL @ LOS

False, deluded, wrong, mistaken.

Simply put, "he got it wrong."

Thought so. Simple enough. Answers every thing.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Uni_Verse » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:58 pm

Los wrote:Assuming that you're referring to Crowley's ramblings about invisible magic men guiding him, the optimist in me holds out the possibility that he was just deliberately making up those stories to flatter his own vanity and to impress the supremely gullible. 'Course, it's always possible that he was just simply wrong and not consciously faking. Or perhaps he was "losing it" at the end of his life.


Why do you feel the need to be optimistic?

You should open your self up, stop assuming or hoping -
Allow the Universe to speak to you.
Its Word is more powerful than childish theories and dreams.

Takamba wrote:LOL @ LOSFalse, deluded, wrong, mistaken.Simply put, "he got it wrong."Thought so. Simple enough. Answers every thing.


I do not think his reply was that simple.
There is only one verse,
sung in infinite ways.
-
"Here!"
I come or came?
I sung!
To seeD the Way
-
God sings,
WE experience:
THE UNIVERSE!
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby chris S » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:03 pm

I do not think his reply was that simple.


Nevertheless it's a generic predictable response.
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby milkBoxx » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:56 am

Frater Horus wrote:
Simon Iff wrote:Curious about Mr. Eshelman's position on this, too.

The way I understand it the highest triad of AA grades are evolutionary agents for the whole of mankind.

Masters of the Temple can found organisations like the AA.
Magi initiate a whole planet, kickstarting new 2000-year-paradigms or supporting or facilitating those paradigms if they are not the kickstarter.
Ipsissimi swear an oath "to retreat into their human person and stay silent about this attainment".

So, the grade of Ipsissimus is the most senior grade formulated (a chief) and secret too.

The Secret Chiefs are, in the AA measuring scale, of the grade of Ipisissimus. They initiate those who found things like the AA and initiate whole planets.

And Los: These people are out there. But you won't find them if you are not looking.


Nice...

How do you understand "retreat into their human person"? doesnt it sound contradictory to the atainment itself?! what is supposed to happen doin so?


From what I have read that someone who reaches the grade of Ipsissimus is required to remain silent about their attainment, or at least it's insisted upon.
I'm not sure WHY exactly that is, but I could imagine it has something to do with the nature of the grade and the idea of silence and the sound of breath.
Can I have another NANA!?!.....Can I have another NANA!?!....
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Uni_Verse » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:35 am

milkBoxx wrote: From what I have read that someone who reaches the grade of Ipsissimus is required to remain silent about their attainment, or at least it's insisted upon. I'm not sure WHY exactly that is, but I could imagine it has something to do with the nature of the grade and the idea of silence and the sound of breath.


One only gains a gleaming upon crossing The Abyss - even then it is conjecture until Union.
There is only one verse,
sung in infinite ways.
-
"Here!"
I come or came?
I sung!
To seeD the Way
-
God sings,
WE experience:
THE UNIVERSE!
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Re: Secret Chiefs and attainment

Postby Los » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:30 pm

kasper81 wrote:It's plain wack. I mean the very name itself, "secret chief" is hilarious isn't it?


It is. Plus the fact that, as far as I can tell, the concept of "Secret Chiefs" was just made up out of the blue in the eighteenth century.

But facts have never stopped wackadoos from claiming "contact" with all sorts of exalted spiritual forces.
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