Guru Crowley's "ultimate abuse" to disciples expla

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Guru Crowley's "ultimate abuse" to disciples expla

Postby redd fezz » Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:43 am

Guru Crowley's "ultimate abuse" to disciples explained?

DZONGSAR Rinpoche: The reason why the guru is the most effective is because the guru is someone you are supposed to look at as being superior to a human being. But he is also someone you can relate to. ... And that's quite important because at the same time that he is someone you can relate to, he is the one you have consciously or unconsciously hired to destroy yourself!....

COHEN: And you said that the teacher who “crushes your pride and makes this worldly life completely miserable is something that you ask for. He is the assassin, he is the man or woman whom you have hired to completely dismantle you.”

DZONGSAR: You may not realize that's what you're doing, but that's the idea—to dismantle everything: your identity, everything. And it's not like dismantling one big habit. It changes. Let's say today I would like to be stroked. Then a teacher should not stroke me. Or maybe today I would like to be beaten. Then maybe I should be stroked. So that's why this is actually beyond abuse and not abuse. If somebody bites you or beats you and handcuffs you, that's a kind of abuse, isn't it? But what I'm talking about is ultimate abuse. At the same time, abuse phenomena only exist if you are still clinging to transitory phenomena as permanent and real. If you don't, there is nothing to be abused. But that's difficult, really difficult.

COHEN: In that case, the teacher's work would be done.

DZONGSAR: Yes, of course. But the kind of student we're talking about doesn't exist. And that kind of teacher doesn't exist, either. Teachers don't have that kind of courage. I don't have it. I may be a teacher, but I don't have that kind of courage because I love my reputation. Who wants to be referred to as an abuser? I don't. I am a sycophant. I try to go along with what people think. If people think a teacher should shave his head, wear something maroon, walk gently, eat only vegetarian food, be so-called serene, then I'm very tempted to do that. Rajneesh had the guts to have ninety-three Rolls Royces. I call it guts. One Rolls Royce is one thing. Even two or three—but ninety-three is guts! And I don't have the guts, the confidence. I like Rajneesh very much. I like him much better than Krishnamurti. Many of his words are quite good, and I can see why the Westerners would like him.

From:
http://www.wie.org/j31/dzongsar.asp?page=1
(there are two pages, the second page has most of the stuff that struck me as "Wow, that's Crowley")

-----------

When I read this, I thought, "DAMN, I LOVE CROWLEY!"
"I have never grown out of the infantile belief that the universe was made for me to suck." – Aleister Crowley
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Postby Rey De Lupos » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:29 pm

Red Fezz wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guru Crowley's "ultimate abuse" to disciples explained?

DZONGSAR Rinpoche: The reason why the guru is the most effective is because the guru is someone you are supposed to look at as being superior to a human being. But he is also someone you can relate to. ... And that's quite important because at the same time that he is someone you can relate to, he is the one you have consciously or unconsciously hired to destroy yourself!....

COHEN: And you said that the teacher who “crushes your pride and makes this worldly life completely miserable is something that you ask for. He is the assassin, he is the man or woman whom you have hired to completely dismantle you.”



Images of helicopters over the jungles of Cambodia and Vietnam...a scene from Apocalpse Now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGosYIlXdmU
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Postby redd fezz » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:54 pm

Hm, that was very interesting!
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Postby Rey De Lupos » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:21 pm

Red Fezz wrote:
Hm, that was very interesting!

Yes, that was very metaphorical, but along the same lines of the thread. It deals wth Gurus and Chelas. [grin]

And knowing your natual predilection for mystery and understanding, I am certain you will decipher the script from Apocalypse Now.

If not I will elaborate.
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Postby redd fezz » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:33 pm

Supposedly he ad-libbed that scene, which is funny. I wonder if he'd ever studied Buddhism before? "Diamond bullet pierced my brain" sounds very much like Vajrayana. :D But, I'd like to hear your elaboration all the same.
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Postby Rey De Lupos » Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:33 am

Hey Redd!

Supposedly he ad-libbed that scene, which is funny. I wonder if he'd ever studied Buddhism before? "Diamond bullet pierced my brain" sounds very much like Vajrayana. Very Happy But, I'd like to hear your elaboration all the same.



Yes, apparently most of Marlon's lines were inpromtu, which I felt worked perfectly in the final analysis. Also, I don't believe that Marlon knew anything about Vajrayana at the filming of this movie, at least no factoids on line. :wink: I believe that the line is indicative of the clarity and brilliance of perspective that type of annihilation might be like -- and yes, a glimpse into the void from the vajrayana buddhist perspective. :)

As for the entire dance of this storyline in a sort of Guru-Chela relationship, we find the intrepid Capt. Benjamin Willard who is seemingly going through a 'dark night of the soul' is brought to task in assassinating a man who he comes to admire, respect and in many ways desires the courage to become -- and in manner, removing him from his dark night.

In the end there is a sacrifice of one life for another -- with the metaphor dramatically carried out with the machete killing of the water buffalo -- tied to the sacrifice of Kurtz life by Capt. Willard.

Which to make this short and succinct reminded me of this quote from your original post:

DZONGSAR Rinpoche: The reason why the guru is the most effective is because the guru is someone you are supposed to look at as being superior to a human being. But he is also someone you can relate to. ... And that's quite important because at the same time that he is someone you can relate to, he is the one you have consciously or unconsciously hired to destroy yourself!....



And in the case of Apocalypse Now the role of assassination has been given to the Chela to kill the Guru -- almost a subtle rendition of, 'if you see the Buddha on the road, kill him.'


Needless to say, there is a journey here, adventure, a goal to the attainment of some work and a message to those who are Listening.
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Postby redd fezz » Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:47 pm

Very interesting indeed! I'm not sure if I had taken the time to rewatch that movie I would've got all that, so I'm glad you took the time to explain it. Now, I do want to watch it again! Last I saw it I was in my early teens and was watching it on regular tv so it was probably censored and edited and with the commercials, it just seemed unbearably long. When it was over, I just remember feeling bad, but that it was over my head because I knew it was supposed to be a great movie, but I didn't know why. It just seemed depressing. I think you nailed the point of it. Pretty cool idea for a movie!
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Postby Rey De Lupos » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:30 am

Hey Redd!

Very interesting indeed! I'm not sure if I had taken the time to rewatch that movie I would've got all that, so I'm glad you took the time to explain it.


You are welcome. And as a disclaimer that is just one of many possible interpretations based on what I have seen and experienced in watching the movie. The metaphors seem apt.


Now, I do want to watch it again! Last I saw it I was in my early teens and was watching it on regular tv so it was probably censored and edited and with the commercials, it just seemed unbearably long. When it was over, I just remember feeling bad, but that it was over my head because I knew it was supposed to be a great movie, but I didn't know why. It just seemed depressing.



I experienced that same thing, having watched it in my early teens and wondering is this really what Vietnam was like!? It was very violent and I had not yet acquired the time-tested tolerance of an adult regarding gory violence. [grin] So, I missed much of the storyline and is possible metaphorical references. It wasn't until my 9-10th time that the finer aspects start to gel. ;)
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