How much do adepts tend to sleep?

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How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Hermes » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:44 pm

It is said in various eastern writings that one who masters meditation doesnt need to sleep anymore, as meditation rest one way more than sleep. Also, as consciousness is always there, "sleep" doesnt occur. So gradually, with one's progress in meditation, one tend to sleep less and less, until there's no need at all.

I'm wondering how this is experienced by western adepts. I remember Crowley, in a letter to a Soror, said something like "now i'm going to sleep as i'm very tired, bye". :lol: Why not just meditate an hour or so and not even mentioning "sleep"? As Crowley was very active especially, why would he "lose time" sleeping? What about more ordinary/lesser adepts?

Or do you think such a skill is very specific and occurs only if one specialises in meditation(maybe of specific kind?) and minimize other activities like magick/philosophy/sex/ordinary life? Or something else?
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Swamiji » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:52 pm

Those various "eastern writings" are quite clearly myth and misinformation based on hyperbole and misunderstanding.
From the very early (theraveda) accounts of the Buddha's life, we know he slept. For that matter, we know that he had trouble sleeping comfortably in his old age.

As for the question of sleep itself, its certainly true that becoming advanced in meditation means you need quite a bit LESS sleep than the average person. This has been my own experience as well. But its a leap from there to the idea that no sleep is needed at all, this was quite clearly fantasy written by people who were more interested in religious/miraculous claptrap than anything else, possibly motivated by frauds making absurd claims, and recorded and copied over time by people who had no personal experience to judge what they were talking about.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:50 pm

I've slept less and less over the last 20 years. During the week, I get 3-4 hours of sleep a night, with one good catch-up night over the weekend.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Hermes » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:46 am

Thanks guys !

Any other testimony?

Personaly at far from adept level i went from like 8h to 6h with no difference in rest this year, and when i still sleep 8h(if tired) it feels like it lasted 10-12h. I'm becoming aware i was croniquely tired before and had bad quality sleep. Another thing i noticed is now i'm fully awake when awakening whereas before it took some time to "warm up the machine".
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:39 pm

I did a polyphasic sleep schedule once--15-to-20-minute naps every 3-4 hours, for a total of about 2 hours a day. I stopped after a few months because it got pretty lonely to be awake when everyone was asleep.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby The_Hawkheaded_child » Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:07 am

Jim, during these 3-4 hours you call “sleep”, do you dream and start identifying with the very stuff of the mind? Do you lose your “awareness” and thus go “unconscious” in the same way as the ordinary man?

If you do go unconscious, how do you explain this as being compatible with the term “enlightenment”, meaning as the Buddah stated:

“I’m awake”

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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:34 am

The_Hawkheaded_child wrote:Jim, during these 3-4 hours you call “sleep”, do you dream and start identifying with the very stuff of the mind? Do you lose your “awareness” and thus go “unconscious” in the same way as the ordinary man?

I'm sure I dream, because that's the nature of how the brain works (what it requires) during sleep. However, I almost never have any recollection of dreams on those nights. (I do observe dreams on waking from my "catch up" nights.) The brain is quite efficient with those 3-4 hours, usually - like a light-switch was flipped off.

Occasionally, though, there are nights (a couple of times a month?) where the experience is of being awake nearly all night, even though I get up as refreshed as ever and function the same during the day as ever. (Therefore, I conclude I was actually asleep.) During these 'lucid'' nights, I'm not dreaming in any usual sense of dreaming (not like the dreams remembered on 'catch-up' nights), but, rather, appear to be awake in subconsciousness, continuing to work on things I've been working on but with a different part of mind.

In fact, that's the primary activity I see in the brain at night: Subconsciousness continuing its ongoing work of processing all things to all possible outcomes, forming associations and streams, etc.

If you do go unconscious, how do you explain this as being compatible with the term “enlightenment”, meaning as the Buddah stated:

“I’m awake”

I wouldn't consider it compatible at all. (Did I ever say anything resembling that in the slightest? It doesn't sound like anything I ever would have said.)
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Uni_Verse » Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:35 am

I have been told around 6 hrs of sleep is required for a "full dream cycle" which entails dream recollection.
This is from a Jungian Dream Analyst.

During more meditation heavy periods, I often only get 3 - 4 hours myself.
If I do not keep myself active, often it leads to some depression and more sleep.
The cycle then starts over.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby AliceKnewIt » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:01 pm

I love to sleep. Not looking forward to sleeping less.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Hermes » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:24 am

AliceKnewIt wrote:I love to sleep. Not looking forward to sleeping less.

Just my 2 cents.


As you will though it seems clear those who sleep less can do it because of the increased quality of sleep. Thus there may be similar enjoyement. Also estimation of time varies, as when quality increases it seems to last longer subjectively.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby ThelemicMage » Mon May 05, 2014 9:21 am

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Greetings all.

I can say that sleep is different during periods in which I am very active in meditation and magick, compared to what it's like when i'm not so active.

As for "not needing sleep", I would lean towards the idea that it was said/written as a metaphor for being "awake", as one is when one has mastered meditation to the point of not even needing a human body.

I believe meditation, magick, and psychedelic entheogens teach one's brain to make more tryptamines, specifically serotonin, melatonin, and dmt. When one's brain has learned to make more of these endogenous neurotransmitters, one gets a better quality of sleep.

Dream recollection is also heightened with these three sacraments of animal life, (meditation, magick, psychedelics,) I believe because one in fact does learn to make these chemicals more efficiently, and there is a leftover awareness from the cacophonic kaleidoscope that is dreaming, since these chemicals communicate with one another and the brain in the same way that the short term memory communicated with long-term, or instinctual memory, and eventually spiritual akashic records.

Just my two farthings.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby AliceKnewIt » Tue May 06, 2014 6:31 pm

A bit different, but related, I have read two masters say that once one reaches a higher level, you do not dream. Which troubles me, as I love dreams.

Krishnamurti spoke of not dreaming anymore once he became enlightened. I can't remember which book it is in.

I also read Michio Kushi (of the macrobiotic movement) explain that someone who has optimum health does not dream. He had a system of dream interpretation, in which different kinds of dreams reflected what sort of imbalances one had in one's diet.

Anyway, I love my sleep and I love my dreams. I suppose if I ever make it to adepthood I will find out what will happen to my sleep and dreams, but until then I will enjoy a good night's sleep full of dreams, and write them all down in the morning!

:)
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue May 06, 2014 7:13 pm

The need to go unconscious to access subconsciousness becomes much less when one lives in more conscious ready access to subconscious.

Also, many of the practices and explorations move intentionally into the same realms without the need to be asleep. One becomes progressively more of an aware participant in the various layers of one's psyche.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Hermes » Tue May 06, 2014 9:32 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:One becomes progressively more of an aware participant in the various layers of one's psyche.


So maybe at high level even the practice of magick can "refresh" one almost as much as deep meditation and impact sleep to a similar extent? As magick and yoga tend to merge...

And what about no needing to meditate at all? Or almost not at all? Does it take crossing the abyss or many adepts can do it? Wasnt it Karl Germer who said he never meditated or something? I heard also a lady in real life saying she's in constant meditation state and she had several siddhis. She attained adepthood doing "nothing", just living normaly(she says) though her state changed naturally and siddhis appeared. If it was that easy for everyone :lol:
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue May 06, 2014 10:51 pm

Frater Horus wrote:And what about no needing to meditate at all? Or almost not at all?

Similar to what I wrote above. There comes a point when much of every day - much of your waking life - is meditation. Without stopping to meditate.

Wasnt it Karl Germer who said he never meditated or something?

He said he couldn't meditate.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby ThelemicMage » Wed May 07, 2014 4:02 am

It is very interesting to note that those who partake of cannabis daily tend not to dream much. This makes sense to a point: that cannabis use causes a drop in waking serotonin production, however melatonin and dmt are the basis for dreaming.

As a matter of fact, I believe serotonin plays a major role in dream recollection.

Also interesting to note is the action of salvinorin upon the brain centers, especially memory. Many users of salvia have had the conscious idea that the sacrament, (salvinorin,) turns into the chemical responsible for memory. I believe this is why most have experiences of re-living childhood, elves and all. (This goes into the connection of childhood and elemental creatures.) Most waking adults do not recall elves when reminiscing, though the words of a child explain quite the opposite.

In my experience, the elementals express themselves in many ways. And most of these ways tend to be leftover illuminating experiences from childhood attempting to manifest themselves in the present.

I cannot recall a dream where the elementals do not play some role.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Hermes » Wed May 07, 2014 4:11 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wasnt it Karl Germer who said he never meditated or something?

He said he couldn't meditate.

I remember reading it exactly as you say in your "the mystical..." book, though i dont remember any explanation. Could you share more concerning this? Why would he phrase it like this, "couldnt", as he attained anyway and thus probably meditated 24/24...? Why not just saying he didnt learn meditation sitting in asana for hours like most people do?
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Hermes » Wed May 07, 2014 4:58 am

Thanks for your input Thelemic Mage...

I've had some hardcore mushrooms for months yet i'm so naturally high currently i cannot eat them. :lol: It feels i must first get comfortable with this new state of consciousness. I even had to quit smoking... The stuff looks at me and say"smoke me, smoke me" yet i can at max once a week... i do like four hits (six was too much last time i tried) and i litteraly fly for a day(whereas i was a daily smoker for years). So currently i just smoke like three cigarettes a day with a coffee and they feel like the real stuff mixed with C ... :lol:

Even food gets me high, vegetables especially. :shock: And doing sports, i train twice a day and it gets me high for hours. It feels like i'm on lsd. I look at my hands and i'm surprised by the color, shape, ondulations... I feel my organs internaly vibrating. My breathing going through all body. Typing this i see the trees and the sky by the window and its very trippy, its all brilliant and so alive... I had a walk by the beach this morning and was merging with the wind and sunlight. Sleep quality is increasing too. Four hours last night ! First time that little is enough. Such are some gifts of Nuit on the physical plane. Even simple fresh air smells so good.

Now i'll do a cucumber. Cheers
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby ThelemicMage » Thu May 08, 2014 8:13 am

Nuit's blessings are plentiful indeed.

Good to hear you're doing well, Frater.

This reminds me of how much I need to get back into meditation again. I was hit by a car last year, but I have been able to master my dragon asana again.
“The mushroom said to me once, ‘Nature loves courage. Nature loves courage,’ and I said, ‘What’s the payoff on that?’ And it said, ‘It shows you it loves courage because it removes obstacles.’ You make a commitment, and nature will respond to that commitment by removing impossible obstacles. Dream the impossible dream, and the world will not grind you under, it will lift you up.” -Terrence McKenna

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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu May 08, 2014 6:06 pm

That's not what I said.

Yes, the HGA can use dreams as one way of communicating: Once there are pathways for an individual to listen to subconsciousness, the Angel will reflect superconscious content into subconsciousness for the Ruach to witness it. But that' only one means.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby ThelemicMage » Fri May 09, 2014 6:59 am

Jim, what do you think this means for true shamans that "dream awake" and deal with elementals during their work?


Do you believe in any way this might be active dream-state interaction with the Angel?

Many Americans go to South America each year and many are cured of cancer and with the ones that are actually cured, the cancer does not return if they follow the shaman's instructions.
“The mushroom said to me once, ‘Nature loves courage. Nature loves courage,’ and I said, ‘What’s the payoff on that?’ And it said, ‘It shows you it loves courage because it removes obstacles.’ You make a commitment, and nature will respond to that commitment by removing impossible obstacles. Dream the impossible dream, and the world will not grind you under, it will lift you up.” -Terrence McKenna

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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri May 09, 2014 7:05 am

ThelemicMage wrote:Jim, what do you think this means for true shamans that "dream awake" and deal with elementals during their work?

(Setting aside temporarily the question of authenticating "true shamans" ...)

It just sounds like routine "astral travel" (so-called). There's substantially no difference between this and sleep, except for the important distinction that the Ruach is comparably engaged in conscious, intentional astral work.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby ThelemicMage » Fri May 09, 2014 8:40 am

I suppose I was referring to the more successful shamans. But this does make a lot of sense.

Thanks, Jim.
“The mushroom said to me once, ‘Nature loves courage. Nature loves courage,’ and I said, ‘What’s the payoff on that?’ And it said, ‘It shows you it loves courage because it removes obstacles.’ You make a commitment, and nature will respond to that commitment by removing impossible obstacles. Dream the impossible dream, and the world will not grind you under, it will lift you up.” -Terrence McKenna

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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby Hermes » Tue May 13, 2014 7:00 pm

...
Last edited by Hermes on Sun May 25, 2014 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much do adepts tend to sleep?

Postby ThelemicMage » Wed May 14, 2014 11:45 am

I can relate to your experience, Frater Horus.

However I must elaborate on something that struck my mind when you mentioned a previous time when you experienced what you interpreted as "being on LSD" 24/24. I suppose some of your avenues folded back properly so you could sleep right and everything again.

Then, I assume you continued astral work in the form of Thelemic study and practice, which lead to you discovering how to open energy pathways through symbol and consecration.

Years ago, I went through maybe a hundred hits in two weeks, of Lysergic acid diethylamide. This went on for months and months, and I only ate paper twice a week, both weekend nights, doubling the dose on the second night. This gave me a full week to lose tolerance, so I didn't make this horrible mistake of "psychedelic diddling", where one eats one hit one day and one or two the next and whatnot. Then they register in their minds "wow, I ate like a thousand hits this summer", when their actual psychic weight tells otherwise. Serotogenic psychedelics other than dmt have instant tolerance, so you can only trip "successfully" maybe two nights a week.

So, I guess eating ten hits without tolerance, repetedly, (500-1000ug), might sustain one with what a human being might call "tripping 24/7". The Psychedelic Experience recommends dosing 250ug, then another 250 when one is a little used to the higher energy an hour or so later, for one's first time.

Quality of LSD is another huge contribution to experience and evolution of a being/race. One should, ideally, be able to learn to sleep much better after having an intense experience, rather than complain of sleeplessness and stress. Though this could be caused by lack of one's "letting go", during an experience, which can "knot up" chi through nadis and chakras. For instance, if one has a huge dose of L their first time, in a stressful situation around people, ending up hunched over in a corner with their muscles all tense in weird ways, one might have to re-dose later, to get back what one calls their normalcy.

In contrast, one can have many positive high-dose LSD or Psilocybin experiences, and end up having one that knots them up. Then they swear off psychedelics thinking it was the drug's fault, keeping their knots unknowingly inside that could easily be de-knotted with a moderate to high dose with proper set and setting.

In the 1950s and early 60's, many schizophrenics, including those so strickened that they could not care for themselves or get out of bed, were cured by starting with low doses of Lysergide, waiting sufficient time, then dosing higher each time, until all the knots were unknotted enough and all the caves were clear of wreckage. "Who is to roll away the stone?"

Anyway, I am what one Frater Horus might term as "tripping 24/7", however I still partake of psychedelics on a regular basis, but I do not need the higher doses I needed years ago to reach the same depths and heights.
“The mushroom said to me once, ‘Nature loves courage. Nature loves courage,’ and I said, ‘What’s the payoff on that?’ And it said, ‘It shows you it loves courage because it removes obstacles.’ You make a commitment, and nature will respond to that commitment by removing impossible obstacles. Dream the impossible dream, and the world will not grind you under, it will lift you up.” -Terrence McKenna

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