Solo Tantra

[gerry456]

For one thing, of course, tantra isn't only about the sexual practices. Tantra itself is the confrontation or resolutions of opposites. Love an ugly woman until she is beautiful to you, love a beautiful woman until she is ugly to you. Then you begin to see the solutions to your personality constructs. Then you see that all is illusion and you are the master.

But one has to use one's own arousal "energy" so one has to get aroused by someone that one finds attractive so I don't understand your point.

By the way the mechanical animal (human all too human) approach to sex of "{****} her" and "shoot your load" and "do her" leads to an imbalance in the relationship to the sexes doesns't it? Tantra should restore the balance once more where a man who holds back orgasm is helped by a woman who understands what he's trying to achieve so that the 2 are aiming to mutually attain a 3rd factor i.e. cosmic consciousness/mind expansion.

[Takamba]

I don't understand your point.

You don't understand my point because you're still acting as if Tantra is only about sexual activity. Tantra is a full tradition of Buddhist or Hindu (depending on tradition) practices, rituals, meditations, and scriptures. Many of the practices that Crowley describes for the A.'.A.'. are in fact westernized Tantric practices. The meditations he describes, the practices he describes, the ways of the A.'.A.'. designed to free the aspirant from egoistic bondage and personal prejudices are all Tantric practices. Tantric Sex (sex magick or sacred sex or whatever you want to call it) is only a very small portion of Tantric studies and is reserved for the season practitioner.

Also, if you are practicing "sex magick" and thinking about sex at the time you shoot your "talisman" forth, you're doing it wrong.

[gerry456]

yes I get that Tantra is holistic.

I don't charge talismans, not yet. Its more devotional at moment.

[gerry456]

I did 45 minutes of 25 plateaus Monday night and I was in a rapture state all night and well into Tuesday day. I did 11 plateaus last night. I've been keeping th Lingam Brathing up also.

How do you avoid being doe-eyes and looking high? I don't want work mates to think I'm stoned.

[Takamba]

I would suggest calming down the brathing (old english for boiling, steaming, violent frothing) and breathing a little more.

But seriously, as with all things - earthing, grounding, bringing one's self back is as vital as the practices that take you there.

[gerry456]

I would suggest calming down the brathing (old english for boiling, steaming, violent frothing) and breathing a little more.

But seriously, as with all things - earthing, grounding, bringing one's self back is as vital as the practices that take you there.

That's good advice and besides, my shoulder is aching too. Yeah there's the stoking the fire in the crucible and then there's the coolant phase.

I feel like I'm leaving normal society behind i.e. most men (may love their partners but they) just want to just {****} their wives and girlfriends to get the job done and achieve ejaculation. The remainder, i.e. men who are in sorrow and frustration are part of that game but they feel like losers because they never got to do the woman of their dreams, to ejaculate in her or on her body. "Be not animal ; refine thy rapture".

By the way here's something I do ; when I see a hot woman I feel aroused so, at that moment I squeeze my prostrate and sphincta, count to five and then release the muscles/exhale. What do you make of that as an exercise?

I found this on a tantra website;

In cases where working with a partner in tantric sexual relations is difficult due to strong lustful habits, it might be benefical to work alone for a while, establishing a good routine of "right-handed" practices -- meditation, spinal breathing, mulabandha, siddhasana, and so on. There can be good stimulation of sexual energy for yoga in sitting practices. Solo masturabation could also be explored in tantric mode, if you are already inclined toward it. In that case, when you masturbate, see if you can develop a habit of staying in front of orgasm using the solo version of the holdback method. With all this, in time, your desire for lustful pleasure will lose some of its luster. That is because the inner spiritual pleasure will be coming up more and more, and it is very sastifying, not just for the moment, but ongoing day and night.


I feel like i'm getting closer to this sexual-spiritual sacrifice of lower pleasure which is years and years and years of conditioning. Surely this lower pleasure is the "judgement of RHK", spoken of in Al?

[Takamba]

I don't know about defining the "direful judgments" just yet.

It's good that you practice something when your animal lust's eyes pick on something, but be aware that any behavior you conduct is a reinforcement of the behavior that preceded it - so in short: if objectifying or sexualizing women is something you believe you aught not do, reinforcing that experience with a rewarding experience is counter-productive to your aim (I say this because I find Kegel exercises very pleasurable).

I certainly like the quote you gave.

You are correct that if you continue on this path, you are leaving normal male society behind. You are finding exactly that which is described as "the Goddess in every woman." I remind you of how I entered this conversation: Imagination is the largest sexual organ. Love an ugly woman until she is beautiful to you. Love a beautiful woman until she is ugly to you. That may not make sense just yet, but when you get there you will know. I recommend finding the most unattractive thing you can find (person, place, or thing) and get yourself done with finding it unattractive. Get yourself to start finding it attractive. When you have succeeded at this in several cases, you will have learned what the real "direful judgments" are all about and how to avoid them. (Or at least you'll learn that you can avoid them if you want to.)

[gerry456]

I don't know about defining the "direful judgments" just yet.

It's good that you practice something when your animal lust's eyes pick on something, but be aware that any behavior you conduct is a reinforcement of the behavior that preceded it -

I appreciate that but i do this Lingam Breathnig when alone and in other situations also so the reinforcement danger is nullified therefore.

(I say this because I find Kegel exercises very pleasurable).

Ok.

I certainly like the quote you gave.
)

Yeah it's good.

You are correct that if you continue on this path, you are leaving normal male society behind. )

Yeah we are few. This is going to be interesting living among a society of the horny and the sex-frustrated and the game-playing animal robot people. I was one of them too for decades so I hope to develop compassion for them as i go on.

You are finding exactly that which is described as "the Goddess in every woman."

Not yet, i still have a bit of that sex-object mentality that normal larval- man has.

I remind you of how I entered this conversation: Imagination is the largest sexual organ. Love an ugly woman until she is beautiful to you. Love a beautiful woman until she is ugly to you. That may not make sense just yet, but when you get there you will know. I recommend finding the most unattractive thing you can find (person, place, or thing) and get yourself done with finding it unattractive. Get yourself to start finding it attractive. When you have succeeded at this in several cases, you will have learned what the real "direful judgments" are all about and how to avoid them. (Or at least you'll learn that you can avoid them if you want to.)

it doesn't make sense as i have to watch porn (attractive women) in order to get myself started in solo tantra work.

On the reintegration of repulsion; I have already tried this Crowleyan exercise of facing what my conditioned personality didn't find comfortable. This included watching gay porn, watching brain surgery and heart surgery footage. i also watched a video of a cockroach giving birth, a documentary on giant rats and a video of tarantula feeding time. I also took a walk around the "bad part of town" and at night. Basically it came to nothing. It was like, so what, i'm facing my squeamishness and controlling my wince-reactions. Ultimately it was unpleasant and probably unnecessary. It never transformed my personality for the better. I don't think it did anyway.

One other point, tantric sex activity is a ritual It's sacred, which is why I pray to Nuit, Hadit and Horus before and after it. It turns on Leary's rapture-circuit so the afterglow involves impaired judgement like smoking weed. I don't recommend driving a car, straight after a tantra session.

Thanks.

[Hermes]

one has to get aroused by someone that one finds attractive

One has to get aroused by what is most useful to the great work.

As far as i know(far from all )one estabilshes the yin and the yang in all things until everything except HGA(in that regard) becomes a mistake. Then can happen KCHGA. How could it happen if you have not tried every other possibility before? There would be a doubt persisting. Though all mistakes must happen before, one can limit the negative effects by being firstly as focused and sincere intention wise, then find ways to gain time, and to avoid actual manifestations of mistakes when possible. Balance these and advance with care, like a hermit who carries a lamp in the night. At the same time seek speed of advancement, and in the most safe way possible.

And use the mistakes as catalyst for will. If you feel sometimes desperate and lonely, well it is true. Until you achieve KCHGA it is true. No woman, or money, or even magical powers will satisfy you in that regard. There is no other possible way to happiness. Not even Nuit as a part of Nuit herself wants you to get this job done before further knowledge of Nuit.

Then when united, the awareness of the union must increase and manifest more and more. It is not the end of all problems Ordeals are adjusted to the level of the practicioner. Big level=big ordeals . Though once KCHGA is achieved one is at least "in peace" in that specific regard.

If you precise a little bit nature and awareness of HGA it can help in that regard. It is never too early. At least if you do so it will help a lot on the deepest level, you will never fall back "too down". You will remember "hey, i know where i'm going". And ask for help in prayer when in desperation. Like the ancient jews, when in trouble they prayed, and forgot to pray when everything was fine. Well it is way better to do so than to not pray at all.

Also desperation and feeling forsaken "hits" the lower body even "lower" than sexuality, it is survival kind of urge. Thus very good for "coaching the devil". Then progressively the devil will dance in harmony will all other animals in the arch.

[Gnosomai Emauton]

It was like, so what, i'm facing my squeamishness and controlling my wince-reactions.

That is part of the work.

Ultimately it was unpleasant and probably unnecessary.

It should have started out most unpleasant. It shouldn't have ultimately ended that way. If it did, you didn't take it far enough.

It never transformed my personality for the better.

"For the better" might be getting in the way here unless you're understanding it in the sense of "less influenced by psychological complexes". Did facing and conquering the squeamishness of witnessing a cockroach birth transform your personality into one that is no longer ruled by that negative reaction? If the answer is no, you didn't take it far enough. If the answer is yes, then you transformed your personality for the better.

[gerry456]

Gnosomai it was a neutralizatoiom so yeah maybe it was a succesful reintegration. Its all physiological, which is very "crowleyan" ie there is an autopsy and all types of surgery on youtube as well as movies of cockroaches and giant rats and watching this should produce an urge to flinch. Its a form of yoga.

What about you man, how are the orgasm-holdbacks going?

[Gnosomai Emauton]

watching this should produce an urge to flinch.

Should? By what metric?

What about you man, how are the orgasm-holdbacks going?

It's not currently a part of my dedicated practice. I work in a session every now and then to keep the machinery toned but, if anything, I'm working on the opposite at the moment.

[Frater INRI]

Ehm, I wouldnt want to rain on anyone's parade here, but to really advance in Tantra
initiation and guidance of a Master is needed.

Inri

[gerry456]

watching this should produce an urge to flinch.

Should? By what metric?
.

Congrats man, if you can watch the aforementioned videos without flinching.

I just want to add to my earlier points about misunderstanding about what Tantra is as I remembered something. Takamba raised this point i.e. Tantra is not only about "lasting longer" with your sex partner or yourself. It's about reintegrating our repulsions and aversions. Some say this is attaining "ultimate reality" i.e. non-dual perceptions. I am a hetero guy so watching gay porn for me was a task. Now, I am not prejudiced, one of my best friends is gay and I've taken flak for hanging out with him. Anyway I put my gay porn watching episodes in my diary and I noticed that when I went out I was getting closer to non dualism moreso. I would see women about in society at the shops etc but my desire -reaction was under wraps i.e. their bodies were becoming yin of the Tao; "form" of the God/Goddess behind form. Call it Siva, Shakti or Kali or whatever.

[Gnosomai Emauton]

Congrats man, if you can watch the aforementioned videos without flinching.

I'm not intending these questions as some sort of comparison or competition, I'm attempting to get you to look at the way you're presenting your evaluation of the world through your language. You state that these images "should" produce an urge to flinch and I'm asking what you're basing that "should" on? Put yourself in the shoes of a surgeon in the ER. "Should" s/he flinch at the sight of surgery? Do you think that a gay man "should" flinch at the sight of straight sex?

The particulars aren't important since different particulars will cause different people to flinch (for example, your set doesn't bother me that much but just the thought of slicing an achillies tendon sets me off), the important aspect is this "should" and why it seems that way to you.

And, ultimately, how you can get away from it.

[gerry456]

Congrats man, if you can watch the aforementioned videos without flinching.

I'm not intending these questions as some sort of comparison or competition, I'm attempting to get you to look at the way you're presenting your evaluation of the world through your language. You state that these images "should" produce an urge to flinch and I'm asking what you're basing that "should" on? Put yourself in the shoes of a surgeon in the ER. "Should" s/he flinch at the sight of surgery? Do you think that a gay man "should" flinch at the sight of straight sex?

The particulars aren't important since different particulars will cause different people to flinch (for example, your set doesn't bother me that much but just the thought of slicing an achillies tendon sets me off), the important aspect is this "should" and why it seems that way to you.

And, ultimately, how you can get away from it.

Oh yeah man I get you now. Yeah for sure man my metric thing was presumptive.

By the way Crowley told Achad to "root out all fear and desire"..words to that effect anyway.

Also, did you ever consider that our definitions of attractiveness in the opposite sex is actually conditioned and engrained? Maybe it started with the Greeks and their sense of proportion and balance?

Note how "primitive" communities have "initiation rituals" where "manhood" is tested. I forget the tribes but one in Africa carves sharp stones around the entire body of the boy and some Red Indians forced their boys to walk about a maypole which they were attached to by hooks in their skin. So on. This mentality is also seen among some biker gangs and criminal gangs per se. Where do you draw the line between spiritual aversion integration and twisted macho-endurance pursuits?

[Gnosomai Emauton]

Also, did you ever consider that our definitions of attractiveness in the opposite sex is actually conditioned and engrained? Maybe it started with the Greeks and their sense of proportion and balance?

I'd say it started much earlier than that. Humans are the only mammals in which the female stores fat in the breast and buttocks creating the curvier, cushionier version common in the present-day species. Likewise, human penises are larger than every other primate, fully twice the size (on average) of our closest competition, the chimpanzee. These anomalies must've taken over the gene pool long before the Greeks were carving marble.

My guess (with absolutely no scientific data to back it up) is that, as our eyes took over as our dominant sense organ, we (males) started to show a preference for mates with the most visibly apparent versions of those things we first found sustenance from. Big round boobs attracted us and, since we weren't yet very adept at differentiation, big round butts had much the same effect. Unfortunately, aimed at doggie style, only those with long enough schlongs could successfully navigate the bountiful booties to plant the seed of the next generation of boob- and butt-lovers so cock-length became an important trait as well. Lather, rinse, repeat for several thousand generations and here we find ourselves, conditioned and engrained to desire things that show no obvious evolutionary advantage but that turn us all on in all the right ways.

Or, at least some of us. Some of us prefer sucking dick because it reminds us of our thumbs (?)

[gerry456]

The female brain doesn't work like the male brain though. They usually won't admit it but females go for internal attributes in a male whereas for males it's vice versa initially. This has to do with the innate "Who would best father my children?" issue which is on the instinctive level. Also, women don't know a guy's penis length until the guy is naked so that theory is off. If women went for penis length then men from certain races who have comparatively smaller penises would never get to mate with "attractive women" but of course they do.

You forgot face. Face is the main part of attractiveness i.e proportion, so if I have a very big out of proportion nose or chin etc then i'm not conforming to that Greek ideal however , to reiterate in an example, Casanova was one ugly mutha I hear.

[Gnosomai Emauton]

You seem to be taking my crackpot theory of human evolution and trying to apply it to modern humans. Mine applies to our early ancestors, "several thousand generations" ago. There were no clothes to take off or societal roles to care about. There were penises to put in vaginas and something happened at that stage of evolution that showed an evolutionary preference for bigger boobs, butts, and cocks.

However, as this seems to be wandering afar from the intended topic of Solo Tantra, I'll just leave that where it is and close with a hearty endorsement of Takamba's previous statement that the imagination is by far the largest sexual organ.

[gerry456]

one has to get aroused by someone that one finds attractive

One has to get aroused by what is most useful to the great work.

As far as i know(far from all )one estabilshes the yin and the yang in all things until everything except HGA(in that regard) becomes a mistake. Then can happen KCHGA. How could it happen if you have not tried every other possibility before? There would be a doubt persisting. Though all mistakes must happen before, one can limit the negative effects by being firstly as focused and sincere intention wise, then find ways to gain time, and to avoid actual manifestations of mistakes when possible. Balance these and advance with care, like a hermit who carries a lamp in the night. At the same time seek speed of advancement, and in the most safe way possible.
.

Yeah man I like that, ultimately pre Tiparethic activity is just that; one star in sight!!

[gerry456]

However, as this seems to be wandering afar from the intended topic of Solo Tantra, I'll just leave that where it is and close with a hearty endorsement of Takamba's previous statement that the imagination is by far the largest sexual organ.

Yeah cool man, you were talking pre history and I wasn't, I get it. may I ask, you're not into orgasm-suspension but it's a traditional Thelemic route. Don't you feel you're lacking in that respect? I don't mean to be rude, just curious.

In fact if I'm not mistaken Jim said that Liber Al is a manual for tantic sex, symbolically.

[Gnosomai Emauton]

I've practiced orgasm suspension quite extensively in the past. At the moment, I'm working on other experiments.

Thelema, as a fully formed philosophy, is barely a hundred years old so I don't know if we can call anything "traditional" yet. If we can... well, I've never been a big fan of tradition anyway; more into exploring the frontiers myself.

I don't know if Jim said the above or not but, either way, it doesn't really matter to me. As much as I admire the guy and as useful as I've found his writing, the Comment to Liber L was written the way it was for a reason. I find L to be many things but a "manual" is not one of them.

If you want it all to be about tantric sex, that's your right. It's already been pointed out to you, multiple times in this thread, that tantra is a much broader field but, to each their own. Do what thou wilt. Set the practices, record the results, discover what they tell you about yourself, adjust accordingly. If there is Thelemic tradition to follow, I would guess it would be that all this work should be toward the goal of discovering your True Will. If you've already managed that, then it should be toward doing it. And nothing else.

[gerry456]

I now recall it was the BOok of Revelations that I think Jim said was the Tantra manual, not Al as iz said. Ha, so JOhn the Divine was tugging on his flesh-toadstool az a route to God eh?

Actually Dave Shoemaker states that AC has a few things to say about various phrases in AL az tantra instructions. In the new comment.

[gerry456]

Takamba, did you ever go to a Tantra festival?

[Takamba]

Takamba, did you ever go to a Tantra festival?

No I haven't. What an interesting concept.