Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

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Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Bereshith » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:32 am

"The deepest we can reach in our exploration of the unconscious mind is the layer where man is no longer a distinct individual, but where his mind widens out and merges into the mind of mankind - not the conscious mind, but the unconscious mind of mankind, where we are all the same. As the body has its anatomical conformity in its two eyes and two ears and one heart and so on, with only slight individual differences, so has the mind its basic conformity. On this collective level, we are no longer separate individuals, we are all one. . . If you begin to think about participation [in this unity] as a fact which means that fundamentally we are identical with everybody and everything, you are led to very peculiar theoretical conclusions. You should not go further than those conclusions because things get dangerous. But some of the conclusions you should explore because they can explain a lot of peculiar things that happen to man." - Carl Jung, Lecture II of The Tavistock Lectures


In other words, if you ever find yourself in the midst of any sort of mind-blowing, psycho-spiritual experience of our collective unity, don't attempt to demand that anyone else interact with you or understand you on that level. If nothing else, it's just the rules of identity.

"You should not go further than those conclusions because things get dangerous."

I cannot underline or highlight that sentence enough.

It has been the most profoundly damning mistake of my life.

I can only hope that, during this Valentine's season, you will pray for my relationship with my wife, who continually has to deal with the effect on our relationship of my previous inexperience and ignorance.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Macsen Melinydd » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:08 am

Amen, amen, amen.

Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Corvinae » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:05 am

Most excellent quote! Thank you for sharing it.

I love the idea of a Valentine Season! yea, I thought I was the only one who got all Doe. Eyed and love sick for a Month, well except for my hubby, but when does a man ever say no, not tonight....

As of late I have been making some breakthroughs in my work, I used to resist going to certain levels, very aggressively. It bothered me deeply why I was not able to go deeper on my own, but needed to fabricate some sort of teether.

I knew I should be able to do it on my own, yet...

I personally think that it is disharmonious to demand anything, except Do What Thou Wilt, especially to demand others interactions.

I think that was what my issue was, I was trying to force something, to demand something, and it was something that didn't need to be forced or demanded.

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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Macsen Melinydd » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:20 pm

Veronica wrote:I knew I should be able to do it on my own, yet...

I personally think that it is disharmonious to demand anything, except Do What Thou Wilt, especially to demand others interactions.

I think that was what my issue was, I was trying to force something, to demand something, and it was something that didn't need to be forced or demanded.

Yes, I can very much relate. Once I was opened to Triadic consciousness and began acting on higher motivations than those defined by the memory and conditioning of Chesed, I immediately turned around and began demanding the same from all those around me.

"Are you kidding me?! That's really what's important to you?! This is the Aeon of Horus, you're free to do AS THOU WILT, and you let something as hollow and fleeting as your emotions define you?!..."
-what I was shouting to everyone.
My peers at school, my parents, my close friends.. All I did was serve to isolate myself and become "that one crazy guy who figured out the universe then disappeared completely".
I demanded everyone else change in the name of the realizations only I had because I was unable/unwilling to change with them myself and continue growing healthily.

Demanding anything of anyone is just shouting at brick walls in small rooms. No response, not even an echo. Only violent madness.
"Avaunt, ye bards!"

~ Papa Taliesin
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Q789 » Wed May 30, 2012 1:35 am

Fantastic Sar, thanks. i can so relate to that.

I need help, though, on the 'things get dangerous' part. Could anybody offer another perspective.?? I understand how working with these areas answers many peculiar questions of mankind. However, why is it dangerous?

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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Fr Seraphis » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:39 am

Q789 wrote:I need help, though, on the 'things get dangerous' part. Could anybody offer another perspective.?? I understand how working with these areas answers many peculiar questions of mankind. However, why is it dangerous?

This is an older thread, but I just cant sit quietly:

there is a great misunderstanding regarding the Jung's unconsciousness, both personal and collective.

Transpersonal, truly Transpersonal can only be hinted at by the term 'unconsciousness'. Whole lot of crap can spring our from the unconsciousness (again, both personal and collective), as any good hypnotherapist can attest (memories of previous existences, age old symbolism, influences from our ancestors -epigenetics -, traumas etc...) none of which is transpersonal proper. Transpersonal begins only with absolute states of awareness, being Briatic or higher in nature (at least Higher Subtle or Causal Level as per Wilber).

It is simply misguided to regard unconsciousness equal to transpersonal. Of course, serious lack of experience and deeper transpersonal insight yields such misunderstanding.

As per your question, dangerous stuff (for the time being) comes out if you force it. When facing a serious trauma from childhood (sexual abuse, for example), one needs to tread very very lightly. So, no forcing when opening up and clearing out the "shadow".

As per transpersonal, too much Light can be harmful as well.
My favorite: my Angel let me burn myself with seriously overdoing the invocation of Ra. 10 days in the Operation I was torn to pieces, not being able to think straight, no eating, nor drinking.

There are always ways to speed up one's way up the Initiation scale or directly to mental hospital. The safest road is the one that has a gentle caution built in it, IMO.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Uni_Verse » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:57 pm

The danger, I presume, is in mistaking the contents of the collective unconscious for ones personal unconsciousness.

In example, in the collective unconscious one might fight the aggregate of child molestation experiences.
If not approached carefully it is easy to fool one self that they have had such an experience.
As they will be reflected through things intimate and familiar to the explorer.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Fr Seraphis » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:18 am

Dar es Allrah wrote:... but where do the UFO's come into it? :-)


Well...herein lies the real danger... with the anal probing and all...
LOL
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Bereshith » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:40 am

It is simply misguided to regard unconsciousness equal to transpersonal. Of course, serious lack of experience and deeper transpersonal insight yields such misunderstanding.


I'm curious. Do you find that error in the quote or thread anywhere?

I don't notice anyone here equating the two. I only see that transpersonal experiences are included in the overarching concept of the collective unconscious.

The deepest we can reach in our exploration of the unconscious mind is the layer where man is no longer a distinct individual


The quote itself suggests layers, which fits with your own description of transpersonal.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Fr Seraphis » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:37 am

Bereshith wrote:I'm curious. Do you find that error in the quote or thread anywhere?


No, of course not.
Sorry for not being more precise.

Bereshith wrote:I don't notice anyone here equating the two. I only see that transpersonal experiences are included in the overarching concept of the collective unconscious.


Yes.
It is a thin line, to be sure. Not to impute anyone's contribution here, it is important to separate the two concepts.
I should have said that in my post to start with, I agree.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Bereshith » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:40 am

I was a little confused, but I'm glad you posted.

I hadn't heard of Wilber or, it would be more correct to say that I've never looked into the Transpersonal stuff at all.

Interesting.

Thanks.

P.S. Material UFOs are okay. But I won't allow the interdimensional aliens to appear to the masses in anything other than material form until humans have a better understanding of their own psyches. Otherwise, they won't have the first clue how to distinquish between the two, and madness would ensue. The Prime Directive starts with the understanding that there are things for which we ourselves are not ready. :wink:
Last edited by Bereshith on Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Fr Seraphis » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:47 am

Bereshith wrote:I was a little confused, but I'm glad you posted.

I hadn't heard of Wilber or, it would be more correct to say that I've never looked into the Transpersonal stuff at all.

Interesting.

Thanks.


Welcome.

Wilber is a rather influential writer, a genius for producing various charts (i.e. mapping states of awareness). Kaballah is ok, no need for Wilber.
Beri'ah and up is what I refer to as transpersonal proper.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Bereshith » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:51 am

You know... If I didn't feel the need to find some way of translating what I've experienced to other people in a language they can accept (i.e. without reference to religion), I'd be a lot better off, I think.

But there's this pesky impulse to teach without which I wouldn't know what to do with myself, and no one is interested in religion or religious language anymore.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Bereshith » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:14 pm

Dar es Allrah wrote:Love never goes out of fashion though.


I know I have a million faces, but today, sincerely, I wish I could remember what it was like to try to love the universe.

As soon as I experienced the realization that it was all one thing and that the main thing was to love it, my experience of it changed as I was ...seemingly... ruthlessly forced to continue admitting over and over, "This too is Her. This atrocity too is Her. This counter to my argument too is Her. This opposite of my own desire too is Her." - until I just don't really give as much of a {****} about a lot of things like I used to anymore. It's all God/Her/Reality/Whatever. Even the hate. So, what's the point of loving it?

It was if Babalon enjoyed torturing the young, inexperienced fool who thought he was strong enough to love her. I don't mean to blaspheme the gods, but I've never understood why it all went down that way.

I do notice in myself that I have only mirrored this ruthless correctness with others, demanding they come to the knowledge as was demanded of me by the one I thought I could love. Something about that's probably incorrect, but that's how it went down.

I'm not sure I remember how to love it. Except, I guess I want to be sure not to break its rules and to try to make sure other people don't break the rules of Reality either. That's about the best I got these days.

I really, really wanted it to be this grand love story where myself and my loved ones were daily revealed more of how it all works and how wonderful it all is. I've played the game a few times to try to get something like that to happen on larger or smaller scales. But it never works. Just more and more coming back to me about how ignorance has a right to remain ignorant. Hatred has a right to remain hateful. Etc. Ad Infinitum. Who gives a (****)?

Some days, I feel like I'd pull the {*******} lever on all of it if I could. But I never actually act on that. There's still some kind of hope down in there.

Anyways, I resisted writing all this up earlier, but you kinda pushed a button.

I have moments where everything makes sense and is cool, but they're fleeting.

I know, I know... I need to return to daily meditation and practice. Gotcha.

Anyways.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Fr Seraphis » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:33 pm

Bereshith wrote:You know... If I didn't feel the need to find some way of translating what I've experienced to other people in a language they can accept (i.e. without reference to religion), I'd be a lot better off, I think.

But there's this pesky impulse to teach without which I wouldn't know what to do with myself, and no one is interested in religion or religious language anymore.


Exactly.

Usually, as soon as one mentions God, zooom, the concept of the church kicks in; hence the neutral transpersonal psychology - for me, that is.
I also teach, and it is easier to pass on the empirical knowledge using mostly technical concepts.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Fr Seraphis » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:52 pm

Bereshith wrote:As soon as I experienced the realization that it was all one thing and that the main thing was to love it, my experience of it changed as I was ...seemingly... ruthlessly forced to continue admitting over and over, "This too is Her. This atrocity too is Her. This counter to my argument too is Her. This opposite of my own desire too is Her." - until I just don't really give as much of a {****} about a lot of things like I used to anymore. It's all God/Her/Reality/Whatever. Even the hate. So, what's the point of loving it?


Everything is Her, but that doesn't help much.
It is only Her presence, direct connection with Her, that can release the pain, nothing else.


Bereshith wrote:It was if Babalon enjoyed torturing the young, inexperienced fool who thought he was strong enough to love her. I don't mean to blaspheme the gods, but I've never understood why it all went down that way.


She is not enjoying, IMO:
In Bhakti yoga (the real deal, Gaurahari's lineage, not the Vivekananda's), this is the way the God/Goddess makes one yearn for Him/Her even more. He/She gives a blessing and then disappears from sight, leaving the poor soul alone. Alone, devoid of everything, dead to the daily world.
This is His/Her blessing.

And once you have truly seen the Light, the darkness becomes really dark.
I have been down that road. Last year after I came back from India, the pain was so terrible I almost died. I was living with tears in my eyes for weeks. Nothing helped, not even nondual Samadhi. I was like a half dead corpse walking around.

It hurt, still does, but now I know She is with me, it is only that my karmic body is clearing out the negative impressions. Suffering and inner pain, in this context, is actually a way out.

Bereshith wrote:I do notice in myself that I have only mirrored this ruthless correctness with others, demanding they come to the knowledge as was demanded of me by the one I thought I could love. Something about that's probably incorrect, but that's how it went down.

I'm not sure I remember how to love it. Except, I guess I want to be sure not to break its rules and to try to make sure other people don't break the rules of Reality either. That's about the best I got these days.

I really, really wanted it to be this grand love story where myself and my loved ones were daily revealed more of how it all works and how wonderful it all is. I've played the game a few times to try to get something like that to happen on larger or smaller scales. But it never works. Just more and more coming back to me about how ignorance has a right to remain ignorant. Hatred has a right to remain hateful. Etc. Ad Infinitum. Who gives a (****)?

Some days, I feel like I'd pull the {*******} lever on all of it if I could. But I never actually act on that. There's still some kind of hope down in there.


<deep sigh>
I can relate.
<tears in my eyes>


Bereshith wrote:Anyways, I resisted writing all this up earlier, but you kinda pushed a button.

I have moments where everything makes sense and is cool, but they're fleeting.

I know, I know... I need to return to daily meditation and practice. Gotcha.

Anyways.


I have no answers,
I just pray for Her darshan, direct presence.
Living on a prayer...
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Bereshith » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:08 am

I take consolation in the experience of continually evolving. It's a work in progress, I know.

Thanks for your responses.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Bereshith » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:52 am

Today, I think I'm on to something.

Self - Other That's what it's all about.

Like I said, there was this moment where I experienced the realization that It was all One Thing and that the experience of It was all about the relationship between Self and Other under various forms.

It wasn't that I had one experience, it was that there were so many different experiences that resulted from that one revelation.

I've been thinking about all my "many faces" and all of the different kinds of perspectives that I have experienced and write about, sometimes glowingly, sometimes depressively.

My problem is that it's all just kind of jumbled together. One day, I'll wake up in a bad mood and sort of automatically go into one kind of experience. So, one day, it'll be my relationship with Babalon, which needs work, and I'll just feel like, "Woman! Do what I say! Why you gotta do me like this?" On another day, I'll have experiences that are more along the lines of relating to my Angel. On another day, I'll be on a head of steam, convinced I'm a king or a hermit, or whatever.

It reminds me of that quote that goes something like, "Wherever you are, you will have a companion." And I find that to be absolutely true.

I think I've spent a lot of time trying to sort of piece together "where I am on the Tree" in my experience, as if I were only in one stage, and I just needed to figure which one.

I think really, I'm all over the Tree in terms of my experiences, depending on the circumstances of the day, changing "companions" (changing my formula for the experience of Self/Other) all the time. THAT's what I've been struggling with - finding some consistency in the experience.

A: Argh...!
B: From here, I might be able to figure out how to stabilize all this into a consistent, intelligible, stable, evolving path of progress.

Thanks again for your responses.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Uni_Verse » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:38 pm

If you do not know where you are on the Tree, X marks the spot.
There is only one verse,
sung in infinite ways.
-
"Here!"
I come or came?
I sung!
To seeD the Way
-
God sings,
WE experience:
THE UNIVERSE!
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Fr Seraphis » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:08 am

Dar es Allrah wrote:Some of this is physiological. Dying takes energy. Nearly dying (getting really out there in the light) takes it out of the body. You have to treat these excursions like a shaman - (you 'do it naturally' but the after-effects are largely the same). A shaman prepares himself beforehand but also knows how to prepare for the after-effects.


Yes.

I am taking precautions now. Cellfood it is called. It helps.

Thank you for a great post.
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Re: Jung quotes on the Collective Unconscious and a comment

Postby Fr Seraphis » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:20 am

Bereshith wrote:I think I've spent a lot of time trying to sort of piece together "where I am on the Tree" in my experience, as if I were only in one stage, and I just needed to figure which one.


I usually consult my Superior.

On the other hand, it might also be called freedom: being and playing many roles.
It is my experience, however, that the Attainment does gravitate to a specific "position" on the map of your choosing. It is quite naturally to see specific properties manifest after attainment, say, K&C of HGA.

In the end, HGA has all the answers. By His mere presence.

"Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart?
Where I am these are not. "
(AL II: 46-47)
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