7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

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7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:56 am

60. I have descended, O my darling, into the black shining waters, and I have plucked Thee forth as a black pearl of infinite preciousness.
61. I have gone down, O my God, into the abyss of the all, and I have found Thee in the midst under the guise of No Thing.
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:12 am

It feels like he's returning to something a little more recognizable to me (with just the sort of symbolism Jung loved!). 48-59 seem all post-K&C, with above-the-abyss references. Now, it's like he's starting to assimilate and summarize his experience.
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby RobertAllen » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:28 am

60. I have descended, O my darling, into the black shining waters, and I have plucked Thee forth as a black pearl of infinite preciousness.

It's just an idea mind you, but what this says to me is this: there is only one path, and it is the path of darkness, backwardness, left handedness...

As much as we strive for light, eschew bad habits, and invoke the gods, we can never really transcend the initial condition in which we find ourselves—mired in darkness, swimming in the black shining waters. The work we do is all one, and is little more than projecting boldly into this depth with the challenge to find the black pearl of infinite preciousness.

The right hand path of the pure ascetic is a lie, albeit a useful lie for some. The fact is our first matter is the world. In redeeming ourselves we must/will redeem it.

61. I have gone down, O my God, into the abyss of the all, and I have found Thee in the midst under the guise of No Thing.

There is something of high school geometry class in this—a subject I got a D minus in as I recall. (If I'm wrong, and 'geometry' is not the right word, then sue me!) It has to do with the notion that any idea creates a complimentary idea. In art it is where I have often started: figure out what people do and you will also discover a totally new, and radical direction in which to take things; in gaining a conceptual understanding of what is done, it is then easy to say: "but it doesn't have to be this way, it could be totally different, it could even be diametrically opposed to the norm, subversive even!"

This abyss of the all is a comprehensive system that attempts to classify everything. For the sake of argument it's enough just to assume there is a conceptual framework or system of classification for each and everything notion—call it the Qabalah. Instantly a very subversive notion becomes part of the system. This subversive notion is the complete antithesis of everything the system is designed to do. It is called No Thing. Admittedly another symbol, but what a symbol?! It is a symbol for what the mind cannot contemplate because it defies specific reference.

Like the dust covered lamp of Aladin, Adonai lies hidden in the storage locker of eternity as the thing we will in our boredom turn to, not after we have looked at everything else, but only when we have become, broadly speaking, tired of looking at things that purport to be actualities.

In Strindberg's A Dream Play there is a dramaturgical riddle near the end. It is a very difficult moment for actors, and most directors to fully appreciate. The heroine, Agnes, tells the poet who is trying to understand her point of view that "nothing satisfies." Before he can object she clarifies the thought with "only 'nothing' satisfies." She turns the negative of nothing into a positive, changing despair into anticipation.

Love and Will
"I remember seeing Atlas looking at a world whose hoops and rings had been broken by Copernicus, where Tycho Brahe placed his back beneath the globe, and a shouting Ptolemy tried to support the round lump, to stop it from falling into the void. In the mean time Copernicus was breaking many crystal spheres that were placed around the globe and was stamping out the little lights that flickered in the crystal jars." (de Hooghe, Hieroglyphica, Amsterdam, 1744)
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby gmugmble » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:58 am

Yesterday, I saw a portal in the shape of the letter Cheth. It was bejewelled, fantastically painted, and ornate with intricate carvings. All around were crowds of people admiring its artistry and delighting in its exquisite beauty, but no one would walk through. I opened the portal and entered, to be swallowed up in total blackness.

Alas, my "visions" never get very far, and I was immediately cast out again into the daily world.

How shall I find a black pearl in this infinite abyss of black waters when I cannot even tread water?


[By the way, for a special bhakti treat, imagine today's verses read in the voice of Captain Barbosa.]
-- Robert W

"Friends in the Dharma, be satisfied with your own heads. Do not put any false heads above your own. Then, minute after minute, watch your step closely." -- Nyogen Senzaki
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:04 am

What a Rush! <doh>

gmugmble wrote:How shall I find a black pearl in this infinite abyss of black waters when I cannot even tread water?

Don't tread water. Sink. Give it up. Surrender to extinction.

You get to the bottom of things faster that way <g>.
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby Corvinae » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:13 am

It used to be a rare treat to dive and find a pearl.
It was a even bigger treat,
To find a black pearl.

Now mankind can make pearls of any colour,
And grow crystals
And clone babies

And the mysteries
And the magic
Is seemingly lost.


But for a creature to make a pearl
Or anything really
There must be
A seed, a germ
Or what have you.

That little grain of sand
In the soft body
Of the mollusk
Is an irritation.

But over time
The irritation is soothed
And becomes
Something more
Then just excrement.

I spend a lot of time in water
Four hours yesterday
Trekking up the creek
Diving down into the black
Cold water.
I never know what I will find
Covered in sediment
Covered from light.
It all appears the same
Until you work to find some thing
The effort to dive
To search
Will never be in vain
Each stone is a miracle
Each grain of sand
A blessing and a gift.

In my infant year I dreamed
Often of diving
Into the ocean
Of the pitch black
And of the Beast
That guarded
My vessel.
Love is the Law.
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby Tinman » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:18 am

call it the Qabalah. Instantly a very subversive notion becomes part of the system. This subversive notion is the complete antithesis of everything the system is designed to do. It is called No Thing.


To put my thoughts down, in order to help myself clarify them - It's my understanding that:

A) No Thing is not subversive to the Qabalah (though I think you were just telling a story) - see Ain, Ain Soph, Ain Soph Aur...

B) I almost seem the second line (line 61) as a quick dip into the 2=0 pool... but not exactly since we're just talking Binah levels here... But you could interpret The Abyss of All = 2... which = 1 because we can clarify it as ALL... which = 0 (the guise of No Thing) because 1 can't define itself without relating to 2, so really it's 0.

Course I also think that The Abyss of All could just simply be "The Abyss" where Daath = all the knowledge, the mass of information without relation or understanding... and descending through this mess, Crowley has found Nemo - no man, no thing... and this may be the black pearl of infinite preciousness - this identity or
the “pearl” is the rounded perfection of the Angel, who is thus a tangible symbol of the Formlessness of Nuit.
as Crowley puts it.
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby RobertAllen » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:44 am

Tinman wrote:
call it the Qabalah. Instantly a very subversive notion becomes part of the system. This subversive notion is the complete antithesis of everything the system is designed to do. It is called No Thing.


To put my thoughts down, in order to help myself clarify them - It's my understanding that:

A) No Thing is not subversive to the Qabalah (though I think you were just telling a story) - see Ain, Ain Soph, Ain Soph Aur...


A) I respect your point of view, but in so far as you cited Ain, Ain Soph, Ain Soph Aur...
...be advised, I am familiar with the concepts. I also defend my use of the word subversive—it's the right word for what I was getting at.

B) Actually, I meant something more along the lines of the Vedantic 'Neti Neti':

In Hinduism, and in particular Jnana Yoga and Advaita Vedanta, neti neti may be a chant or mantra, meaning "not this, not this", or "neither this, nor that" (neti is sandhi from na iti "not so"). Neti neti is a saying found in the Upanishads and especially attributed to the Avadhuta Gita.

Neti neti is also an analytical process of conceptualizing something by clearly defining what it is not. One of the key elements of Jnana Yoga is often a "neti neti search."

Adi Shankara was one of the foremost Advaita philosophers who advocated the neti-neti approach.

Neti-neti is held as the approach to understand the concept of Brahman without using affirmative (and thereby inadequate) definitions or descriptions of Brahman, comparable to apophatic theology in Eastern Christianity.

The purpose of the exercise is to negate conscious rationalizations, and other distractions from the purpose of a meditation. It is also a sage view on the nature of the Divine, and especially on the attempts to capture and describe the essence of God. In this respect, the phrase succinctly expresses the standpoint of negative theology.

—Wikipedia


I see this as subversive to the normal functioning of the analytical mind—though, any analytical process, if pushed to its limits has this potential of destroying itself from the inside. My original, full post attempted to define what I meant by subversive. And as a side note, I don't think the use of the word subversive means 'totally unheard of,' I'm not relating anything very radical, only my thoughts based on the passage.

I suppose you can equate this notion with the the three negative veils of Tree of Life, but that was not my intention.

Love and Will
"I remember seeing Atlas looking at a world whose hoops and rings had been broken by Copernicus, where Tycho Brahe placed his back beneath the globe, and a shouting Ptolemy tried to support the round lump, to stop it from falling into the void. In the mean time Copernicus was breaking many crystal spheres that were placed around the globe and was stamping out the little lights that flickered in the crystal jars." (de Hooghe, Hieroglyphica, Amsterdam, 1744)
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby Tinman » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:14 pm

the word subversive—it's the right word for what I was getting at.


... but if the framework of Qabalah has a place for "Neti Neti" or "Ain" already established.... it's not subversive... it's institutionalized baby! (which brings up the random thought, can something subversive be a an intentional part of the system it is intended to subvert...hmmmm...more to ponder)

Though sometimes I contemplate that Neti Neti doesn't refer to Ain... but instead to Binah. Grok this - if Daath is knowledge - pure unadulterated knowledge - and above that is Understanding - maybe this tenuous thing we reach at when saying Neti Neti - is the same thing above Knowledge that Binah is - pure understanding... or maybe it's more the pure Nothingness (but not that ;) of Ain.

To bring up a previous conversation - Neti Neti is a perfect example of an attempt to "express the inexpressible".
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:26 pm

Tinman wrote:Though sometimes I contemplate that Neti Neti doesn't refer to Ain... but instead to Binah.

Or Tav.

Grok this - if Daath is knowledge - pure unadulterated knowledge - and above that is Understanding - maybe this tenuous thing we reach at when saying Neti Neti - is the same thing above Knowledge that Binah is - pure understanding... or maybe it's more the pure Nothingness (but not that ;) of Ain.

We could call it Dunno Dunno Dunno.
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby RobertAllen » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:38 pm

Tinman wrote:... but if the framework of Qabalah has a place for "Neti Neti" or "Ain" already established.... it's not subversive... it's institutionalized baby! (which brings up the random thought, can something subversive be a an intentional part of the system it is intended to subvert...hmmmm...more to ponder)


I don't see it this way. I see the Qabalah as a cataloging system. From where I stand, pointing out that the Qabalah has made the nothing part of its structure is like saying the thermonuclear bomb is a part of international diplomacy. I mean it's there, we can point to it and say: this represents the nothing that has the power to void everything! But saying as much is purely academic, imho.

Tinman wrote:Though sometimes I contemplate that Neti Neti doesn't refer to Ain... but instead to Binah. Grok this - if Daath is knowledge - pure unadulterated knowledge - and above that is Understanding - maybe this tenuous thing we reach at when saying Neti Neti - is the same thing above Knowledge that Binah is - pure understanding... or maybe it's more the pure Nothingness (but not that ;) of Ain.


Your asking me to play word games with something I want to understand as a reality. But okay, sure, to the degree that it's useful to roll the idea over in ones mind and relate it to other concepts I can play along, to a point. But given the notion that it's nothing, or better 'no thing,' success in this exercise cannot be measured by how much we begins to imagine we understand what it is based on what it is like because it is by definition, not like anything.

Tinman wrote:To bring up a previous conversation - Neti Neti is a perfect example of an attempt to "express the inexpressible".


I think it isn't so much an attempt to express anything as it is a strategy to undo something, to cause the system to crash—to chop down the tree!

Of course, I can only speculate, but my reasoning makes sense to me. I have much more of a problem with what it seems you are trying/wanting to do here.

EDIT: this subversive element, this identification with the destroyer is not something I feel is just my private, hermetically sealed idea, unconnected to the text as I have been following it so far.

30. Thou art Sebek the crocodile against Asar; thou art Mati, the Slayer in the Deep. Thou art Typhon, the Wrath of the Elements, O Thou who transcendest the Forces in their Concourse and Cohesion, in their Death and their Disruption. Thou art Python, the terrible serpent about the end of all things!

Love and Will
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby Tinman » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:00 pm

I have much more of a problem with what it seems you are trying/wanting to do here.


Spend the time talking to a group of people (and sometimes individuals) about topics that interest me - learn a little, share a little, have a good time.

Specifically here, you seem to have a interesting analytical view point - I have my own point of view - by having a logical conversation about some of these crazy subjects (such as "expressing the inexpressible") I hope to learn more from you (and others) and your own view point (sometimes by digging for more information, and sometimes from challenging notions), and I hope to learn more, think more, and be able to better articulate my own view point (sharpening my tools in battle of sorts) - Nothing mean spirited I can assure you and I hope it doesn't come off in a pissy or mean way.

And I only bring up the whole "express the inexpressible" thing again because Neti Neti is such a PERFECT example of using words/logic/language to express something beyond them. And when you said things like "cause the system to crash, chop down the tree" - those are experiences I've had, experiences I've felt, when working with Neti Neti, or Zen Koans, or Qabalah... that to me IS "expressing the inexpressible" on the head!

Jim - TAV?!?!?!?! Please explain. My brain did the appropriate connecting jumps (Tav, Saturn, Binah) but Saturn doesn't seem to be getting at the "Neti Neti" - it seems too well defined by positive statements. What piece am I missing in the equation you're adding up?
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:03 pm

Speaking of nuclear weapons... especially hydrogen bombs, which involve nuclear fusion:

If you stop and think about how "solid" matter is composed mostly of empty space -- with the electrons orbiting the core of an atom like planets around the sun -- you start to realize that a lot of the "solid" feel of objects is this opposing charge between the electron and the proton/neutron core.

When you think of fusion, we might infer the idea of chemical reactions, as different molecules unite to form new molecules. But in a chemical reaction, we're really just talking about elements sharing their electrons in an interesting way. With fusion, the circumstances are able to overcome the huge charges that separate the electrons and protons, and actually create new elements. It's kind of like the difference between two train cars coupling, and two automobiles crashing and fusing into a minivan.

What I think is metaphorically interesting, is this gulf that separates the electron and the proton. The gulf that has to be crossed for this separation to end. This distant unknown otherness that the electron spends its life orbiting around. The repulsion/attraction that simultaneously divides and unites them.

(science content to be taken with a grain of salt, seeing as I ain't a nuclear physicist)
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby RobertAllen » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:32 pm

Tinman wrote:Specifically here, you seem to have a interesting analytical view point - I have my own point of view - by having a logical conversation about some of these crazy subjects (such as "expressing the inexpressible") I hope to learn more from you (and others) and your own view point (sometimes by digging for more information, and sometimes from challenging notions), and I hope to learn more, think more, and be able to better articulate my own view point (sharpening my tools in battle of sorts) - Nothing mean spirited I can assure you and I hope it doesn't come off in a pissy or mean way.


I may have read too much into some of your comments.

I confess I am actively attempting to steer a course away from outside authority. I have to fight with myself to stay on track here. For this reason I find stock ideas , and quotes by experts annoying. I understand how they can be aids, but I'm just not in that kind of head-space atm.

Acknowledging your position is something I should do, and part of me does, but I sometimes feel I can't afford the psychic space needed to roll with it. Right now, I'm just trying to keep certain options on the table. It has nothing to do with being right.

No offense meant, hopefully no offense taken.

Love and Will
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Re: 7 July (Water) Liber LXV, 3:60-61

Postby Tinman » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:44 pm

No offense meant, hopefully no offense taken.


None taken - just didn't want to give you the wrong impression and stop a good back-and-forth.
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