Explaining Thelema to non-Thelemites

[Shadow Self]

I've tried explaining thelema to some non-thelemites, and here are the misconceptions I have had to deal with.

1) Its some cult with a guru who tells you what to do. The most important part is joining some organization like the OTO or AA, else you are not a real thelemite.

2) If you do what you want, you will just end up following every whim or desire, for instance if you want to eat the whole bag of potato chips, you will do just that (or any other habit that feels good in the short term but has negative long term consequences, because after all, you are not supposed to do anything for lust of result.

3) If you discipline yourself to do things under will, then how come for example, a man shouldn't' become a doctor, for instance, because his father was a doctor even though he hates the profession because has dad told him, you will make a lot of money that way, and he wants the end result, the money, even though he loathes the whole process of becoming a doctor and practicing medicine.

4) If all that's too confusing, and self-contradictory, then how come people practice mysticism and magick to find there true wills, when it may not be something they want to do anyway (following ones true will that is), or that they think is in anyway good?

I'm not any good at convincing people that it is anything other than the following. Under normal circumstances I would give up, but I feel that in this case, it is my true will to discuss the matter further regardless if people like it or not.

[Jim Eshelman]

I think the need to convince people in these points is a false need - that it's a substitution for a different need. (What other need? I'd have to guess, and you're in a much better place to track that yourself.)

Liber Legis is quite clear on this point: "Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!"

That one seems unambiguous, to me. There is another passage where my own interpretation varies from most people's interpretations. Verse 3:39 ends, "...to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!" This passage is often interpreted as remarks on how the comment was to be prepared. I read it as saying that, to each person you meet, "it is the Law to give" - tell them a bit about it - then shut up and leave it to them to run with it or not. I read "Do this quickly!" as meaning we are to share about the Law in few words, in a few moments, with a few remarks.

In any case: Argue not! Convert not! Talk not overmuch!

[Uni_Verse]

That one seems unambiguous, to me. There is another passage where my own interpretation varies from most people's interpretations. Verse 3:39 ends, "...to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!" This passage is often interpreted as remarks on how the comment was to be prepared. I read it as saying that, to each person you meet, "it is the Law to give" - tell them a bit about it - then shut up and leave it to them to run with it or not. I read "Do this quickly!" as meaning we are to share about the Law in few words, in a few moments, with a few remarks.

I am also against the notion of converting people.

How I reconcile, if you will, "converting not" and "it is the Law to give" :
Remembering, the whole of the Law is "Do what thou Wilt" and "Love is the Law."
We being told to Do what Will, to express that Love to each that you meet.
Reveal to them this chance to abide in bliss, and allow them to decide.
Kind of like a movie where you are suppose to show not tell.

Furthermore, only under the most rare circumstances do I actually posit the person read the Book of the Law.
I am careful to pick out and focus on the notion of knowing and doing ones Will, regardless whether they do it as a Christian, Muslim, Pagan, Politician, Cobbler, King...

[Angel of Death]

I am curious as to how you deal with other peoples misconceptions?

I think some of the reason that I mostly get stone silence from some is that they inwardly feel the need to be able to handle me......

I am not trained like a pony in the ring,
I do not dance because so and so said so,

I am wild and raw,
Untamed
Driven by my own inner Love

No one tells me what to do,
They may make suggestions,
But I draw from all sources
Leaving my self open
To any possibility
That strikes my chords
And makes we feel good

I will eat as much chips as i want, because what I want is in harmony and accordance with a higher Will.

[Shadow Self]

I don't actually care about convincing people in general on these points. In most cases I would just be happy to let them know that Thelema exists. but this specific case is about my husband.

While we got married, in the Roman catholic church, I did not really feel that into that form of religion, but I put the effort into it for the sake of my family (mainly my mom), also he was raised Roman Catholic as well. For a long time I didn't really have any religious practice, well, except the church, but I found it did not really work for me. My dad is an agnostic, leaning towards atheism, (so hes not like going to skeptic meetings but he would probably agree with them on most points. ) My husband was never really a hard core fundamentalist about Roman Catholicism, and did not care about going to church after we were married (he never mentioned it, and I never had any desire to either.

About the chips thing, my mom used to eat a whole huge bag of potato chips in one sitting, along with heaping piles of pasta, quarts of icecream in one sitting etc. She got to be over 200lb and diabetic as a result of her following her wants of the moment.

Anyway, I'm worried about him not doing his true will. Shortly after we got married, he started a new job. Then he began what I would refer to as ranting. He would rant and rave in the car. It got to be so car trips with him were never any fun. It always had to do with other peoples behavior and how they treated him. He did this at home to. He would come back from work, and give off vibes. The cat noticed and would immediately begin shredding the couch. He has since had a few different jobs, and been unemployed now for several years. At times, the ranting got so bad, I thought about leaving him.

[sk4p]

I can't speak for anyone else, certainly, but I'm a little confused about what it is you're asking now.

You seemed to be asking some questions at the beginning of the thread, but now you've just shared an explanation of your situation with him. And that does sound like an unhappy situation, but I'm wondering where you're going with it and Thelema.

There are several readings I could see, but neither of them feels exactly right.

1. Are you saying "My husband is unhappy and unemployed and rants a lot, and I think Thelema would help him" and then asking "how do I talk to him about this and clear up his misconceptions?"

2. Are you saying "My own true will is to have a happier relationship than my husband is now giving me and I feel I'm going to leave him if he doesn't get his act together, and maybe if he understood Thelema he'd see where I was coming from?"

I'm not sure either of these is what you're asking, but perhaps I'm the only confused one

[Bereshith]

Well, it doesn't sound like your husband is really very interested in religion at all, and that may lead to a misconception about what Thelema has to offer him in the first place.

If your concern is for your husband to find the benefit of doing his Will instead of living frustratedly and wasting all his emotional energy on outbursts and the attempts to contain them, then you can always attempt to simply approach him in terms of the good you want for him. As typified in Crowley's fictional work Diary of a Drug Fiend, the "master" in the book was very happy when the student decided that he needed to drop all this magical, mystical stuff and go design and build airplanes. The student was led to do his Will, and that was all that was really important to the master. Encourage him by relating what you have learned of the power of focusing your life's energies into finding the One Thing for which you are fulfilled by pouring out your life into it, win or lose.

"For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect" (Liber CCXX, I:44).

If your husband begins to lean once again toward the desire for spiritual resources in his efforts, you can of course describe to him what you've found in Thelema. But this could represent an entirely different milestone for him. To my mind, if he does begin seeking spiritual resources again, I would encourage him to begin where he likes, and then walk with him through the process of discovery, speaking honestly and openly of what you've learned yourself.

[Angel of Death]

Thank you Sister for taking the time to explain our situation more, it clears away many veils for me.

I am in a similiar situation with my husband, who was raised going to church, but stopped when his parents broke up at eleven.

IMHO, being a female we are more nTuraly inclinded to worry, as we embody creation, past present and future. Yet worrying about another, distracts us from being fully present in our own lives, and diminishes our natural spiritual inclinaction because......
Its not your job to worry about him and his true will.

You are Goddess incRnate, the divine feminine resides in you, and you are empowered to share enlightenment.

I also think that since you and he are schooled in RC dogma, the patriarical indoctrinated suppression and hatred for the feminine nature may be a source of anger, frustration and confusion. When my husband realized how horrid and evil some mens hearts are toward women, he through himself into Lavey Satanism.....which was very interesting to watch unfold, and then fold right back up.

I have never attempted to explain Thelema to anyone let alone my husband, except for the statement DWTWSBTWOTL, LITL, LUW. An empowered women does not ever Have to explain herself, yet, an empowered woman is naturally slanted to share and nurture, which is best done without words ( unless its passionate words spoken in moments of intamacy)

I really dont read much AC at all, I have tried several and except for the BOTL and the Book of Thoth, they are way to restrictive of my femininity.

I understand how difficult living with a negative person is. But i trust in goddess with my whole being.

[Athanatos]

I think the need to convince people in these points is a false need - that it's a substitution for a different need. (What other need? I'd have to guess, and you're in a much better place to track that yourself.)

Liber Legis is quite clear on this point: "Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not overmuch!"

That one seems unambiguous, to me. There is another passage where my own interpretation varies from most people's interpretations. Verse 3:39 ends, "...to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!" This passage is often interpreted as remarks on how the comment was to be prepared. I read it as saying that, to each person you meet, "it is the Law to give" - tell them a bit about it - then shut up and leave it to them to run with it or not. I read "Do this quickly!" as meaning we are to share about the Law in few words, in a few moments, with a few remarks.

In any case: Argue not! Convert not! Talk not overmuch!

I don't think it's so unambiguous. A distinction needs to be made between promulgation (which Crowley definitely advocated pretty heavily) and conversion. Conversion implies force, whereas promulgation means making people aware of the Law and explaining it to them properly. To that end, explaining certain points to people--such as the fact that Thelema isn't some cult with gurus telling you what to do--is essential for proper and effective promulgation.

"Convincing" someone doesn't necessarily mean getting into a long argument with them, but rather making them aware of certain points of Thelemic philosophy and practice that clearly refute their misconceptions. Crowley was very clear on the fact that establishing a Thelemic society is inherently a part of doing one's Will. It is difficult to establish such a society if we allow rampant misconceptions to go unchecked. Correcting these misconceptions is not inherently "conversion."

I've tried explaining thelema to some non-thelemites, and here are the misconceptions I have had to deal with.

1) Its some cult with a guru who tells you what to do. The most important part is joining some organization like the OTO or AA, else you are not a real thelemite.

2) If you do what you want, you will just end up following every whim or desire, for instance if you want to eat the whole bag of potato chips, you will do just that (or any other habit that feels good in the short term but has negative long term consequences, because after all, you are not supposed to do anything for lust of result.

3) If you discipline yourself to do things under will, then how come for example, a man shouldn't' become a doctor, for instance, because his father was a doctor even though he hates the profession because has dad told him, you will make a lot of money that way, and he wants the end result, the money, even though he loathes the whole process of becoming a doctor and practicing medicine.

4) If all that's too confusing, and self-contradictory, then how come people practice mysticism and magick to find there true wills, when it may not be something they want to do anyway (following ones true will that is), or that they think is in anyway good?

I'm not any good at convincing people that it is anything other than the following. Under normal circumstances I would give up, but I feel that in this case, it is my true will to discuss the matter further regardless if people like it or not.

To answer the original poster, here are some basic ideas:

1) Joining a spiritual organization such as O.T.O. or A.'.A.'. is a completely voluntarily decision. Even upon joining, you can withdraw at essentially any time and do not have to accept someone else's interpretation of any point of Thelemic doctrine if you do not desire to do so. The fact that there are several competing Thelemic organizations shows that not all of them agree of certain points, and thus membership in any of them does not confer the label "Thelemite" upon one. If this is the case, what does confer such a label? In my opinion, accepting the Law of Thelema, as outlined in The Book of the Law, as the sole basis for human conduct. While part of this involves one's interpretations being in accordance with those of the Beast, since Thelema isn't just whatever we want it to be, much of it is left up to one to decide for oneself, as is discussed in The Comment.

2) "Do what thou wilt" refers to doing the True Will, which is completely different from doing one's whim or whatever one (in the mundane, egoic sense) "wants." This was detailed by Crowley on numerous occasions. I'm not sure why "lust of result" is being brought up in this context. In any case, Thelema involves renunciation of those things that are not truly you in favor of those that express your deepest nature the most authentically. That's what "do what thou wilt" means, in my opinion.

3) He shouldn't become a doctor if it is not his True Will. If he loathes the idea, that may or may not be a strong indicator that it is contrary to his Will. Engaging in Thelemic mysticism and gaining self knowledge and learning the nature of his Will would help him in deciding this. There are other ways for him to make good money than becoming a doctor, if money really is a part of his True Will. If he merely "wants" the money, maybe that's what he should be renouncing rather than professions outside the medical field. Again, not being said person, I can't say what his Will is. Each individual must discover it for him/herself.

4) Because Will and want are not the same thing. Also, I don't know anyone who practices mysticism or magick that doesn't want to.

[Uni_Verse]

I don't think it's so unambiguous. A distinction needs to be made between promulgation (which Crowley definitely advocated pretty heavily) and conversion. Conversion implies force, whereas promulgation means making people aware of the Law and explaining it to them properly. To that end, explaining certain points to people--such as the fact that Thelema isn't some cult with gurus telling you what to do--is essential for proper and effective promulgation.

An idea to keep in mind is that one can promulgate the Thelema and the Law without directing referencing it.

For I see the best way of making people aware of Thelema is by following its precepts: Do your Will and nothing less.

"Convincing" someone doesn't necessarily mean getting into a long argument with them, but rather making them aware of certain points of Thelemic philosophy and practice that clearly refute their misconceptions. Crowley was very clear on the fact that establishing a Thelemic society is inherently a part of doing one's Will. It is difficult to establish such a society if we allow rampant misconceptions to go unchecked. Correcting these misconceptions is not inherently "conversion."

Going along with my earlier point...
If a person is aware of the the current, what have you, of Thelema I certainly agree on clearing up any misconceptions.

Though, again, I do not see a Thelemic society neccesarily built on "Thelema" per say.
In my discussions with people I try to emphasize the concept of True Will, if not in so many words.
Doing so in a way that does not infringe on what-ever may be the Will of that person.
One can follow Judaism, Christianity, Satanism, what have you and still do their True Will.
A person could never have read the Book of the Law yet still follow its precepts.

[ThelemicMage]

That one seems unambiguous, to me. There is another passage where my own interpretation varies from most people's interpretations. Verse 3:39 ends, "...to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!" This passage is often interpreted as remarks on how the comment was to be prepared. I read it as saying that, to each person you meet, "it is the Law to give" - tell them a bit about it - then shut up and leave it to them to run with it or not. I read "Do this quickly!" as meaning we are to share about the Law in few words, in a few moments, with a few remarks.

I really think these passages have directly to do with one another as such:

To do your Will in Thelema, its ways, paths, and virtues, and be quiet about the actual magic of it.

As far as being in eating/drinking/etc.. ceremonies with others, it is thy Will and duty to introduce them to the Way somehow, but to be sooo careful about it..

I have had great success in quieting Christians by comparing Yeshua with Osiris, and Osiris's son Horus being the obvious "Crowned and Conquering Child" of revelations. After I very carefully explain the facts in such a way as to anticipate their thoughts, then lay that "Crowned and Conquering Child" thing on them, they pretty much sit or stand there with a half-smile, as if they are trying to get deep in thought, and breaking through well into it.

Just my 93 cents.

[ThelemicMage]

One can follow Judaism, Christianity, Satanism, what have you and still do their True Will.
A person could never have read the Book of the Law yet still follow its precepts.

I would strongly agree with this, only if you include the idea of letting go of the dying god and accepting the aeon of Horus as the child crowned and conquering.

To believe false beliefs is NOT True Will. You don't always just do your True Will. If you read carefully posts and things people have wrote, they always say that whatever you do is doing your Will, but the wording is not "True Will."

Humans are so interesting.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

To believe false beliefs is NOT True Will.

Well, I would suggest that all beliefs are false, it's just a matter of which belief serves your needs at the time. As mentioned above, we have to outgrow the need for a certain belief before we can outgrow the belief.

[ThelemicMage]

Touche, Benjamin.. however, you must have been aware that I was trying to explain a method of communicating a Thelemic "Belief".

Since light itself is but illusion, you are correct on all points.

However, certain sets of beliefs are in fact Truths if in the appropriate context/aeon/time/space. You cannot say that if I go outside and urinate that the (****) would splash upwards instead of downwards. This the "Truth" I was referring to.

Now, since there is a set "truth" built upon physics and everything from above that constitutes these physics, It cannot possibly be my True Will to urinate upwards unless there is a specific need to do so. (I doubt it.)

[ThelemicMage]

I have had great success in quieting Christians by comparing Yeshua with Osiris, and Osiris's son Horus being the obvious "Crowned and Conquering Child" of revelations. After I very carefully explain the facts in such a way as to anticipate their thoughts, then lay that "Crowned and Conquering Child" thing on them, they pretty much sit or stand there with a half-smile, as if they are trying to get deep in thought, and breaking through well into it.

Why bother though? Does this have to do with your True Will? Or are you just stroking a certain part of your proverbial c*ck? I could theoretically explain to my mother all the things I think are "wrong" with her religion, but I don't. You know why? Because it's not my will to mess with hers. Also because I feel like if it collapsed her whole world, I would be assuming a kind of personal responsibility for her after that. Karma is involved.

I will paraphrase the book of the law, and say that these people are openly restricting and interfering with everyone else's true Will in the world. They need to be delt with mercilessly, even if they are your family. Even the Son of Man said, that when "He" comes back, (As The Aeon of Horus,) that His "new religion", (Thelema) will tear families, governments, societies apart, and it is certainly MEANT to. His words.

We shall be vehemently upon them, swinging our swords out over the gale, striking, smiting, and prevailing, with Ra Hoor Khuit at our arms.

A re-read over the book of the law and commentary tells us that it is our duty to do these things, and as soon as someone slips and starts to fall, to let the dogs of hell have them, and not turn back. There's always a little hidden sympathy, even in RHK, so would you want your mom to just gain spiritual weight and fall down and down into the dusk of death, hell, and the hell that is worse than hell?

[ThelemicMage]

I didn't personally draw that same conclusion. I'm not saying either of us is right or wrong either. You also make the assumption that I believe in a place called hell.

What exactly do you mean by "gain spiritual weight"? What's this dusk of death stuff?

Each person is responsible for themselves, even my mother.

Yes, your mother is her own person, even if she interferes with your or her own True Will.

The references of spiritual weight and dusk of death is all out of our man Crowley's material.

A further look into the Book and his Work would bring you incredible insight.

I would say to at least have a hundred pieces from him read before I would totally understand the Law of Thelema, which I have.

"Think, oh spirit, that death is the bed into which you are falling! Sink not!"

[ThelemicMage]

I believe that I understand Thelema, in the way of time with the understanding that I have now.

And yes, I have read a lot of Crowley.

Let me briefly surmise something in my previous post.

Earth, or Malkuth on the very bottom of the tree, contains fire in it's core and so does every star.

If you gain "spiritual" weight/unneeded girth, (not to mention length,) you will fall down to be tormented in that massive ball of fire that composes the center of the Earth, and every star.

If you understand Thelema, and flow naturally, you will not have to endure these things, because you will flow with them, having already understood their purpose, and instead use them as sources of energy.

[Soror Puella Lucis]

This topic is always a frustrating one that I've adjusted several times over the years.

I try to speak plain language and tell them that it's a brand of spirituality I align myself with that says I should try to find my True Will, and not interfere with other people's True Will. Then I tell them it's fairly libertarian. Then they usually nod in agreement.

I live in the bible belt, so if I go too much past that people will usually think I'm in a cult or worship Satan. Telling them how I find my True Will is something I save for much later.

[Archaeus]

If you gain "spiritual" weight/unneeded girth, (not to mention length,) you will fall down to be tormented in that massive ball of fire that composes the center of the Earth, and every star.

What the Hell is that supposed to mean?

[ThelemicMage]

The progression of elements and beings that live in such elements can be mapped out, especially using liber 777.


What elements are harmful in greater intensity than others unto those specific beings can be easily defined as some sort of "hell", but the proverbial "hell" being a place where a being has trapped themselves in such circumstances.

I just described the fusion of the universe, shared with every star and active planet, and what happens when beings "trap" themselves to have to experience that fusion, with no control over the process, for a very long time because of "spiritual" inactivity, and got shot down from the class being completely unprepared to discuss the progression of life and the progression of elements.

I will now end my part of this discussion.

I would consult the gnomes if you wish to dive(divine), further into this.
They live very far underground, and are very intimate with the processes that I speak of. If you don't believe in gnomes, I'd say that light itself is but illusion, and you should read more Crowley.

First, try going thoroughly over Liber 419, with all the commentary and drawings. Don't believe in Liber 419? Don't know what else to tell you.

[Uni_Verse]

Uni_Verse wrote:One can follow Judaism, Christianity, Satanism, what have you and still do their True Will.

Your talking about religions that really do a lot to suppress the individual nature of people.

What about RHK flapping his wings, and pecking out the eyes, etc?

How does one fully explore the nature of their being, when they adhere to a philosophy which puts such restrictions on personal freedom/liberty? Following the precepts of thelema seems to put one at odds with what these religions are all about.

The dogmas and belief structures of these religions are very out dated, not to mention unscientific. They seem to me inapplicable in todays world. That is not to say that you are wrong, I guess I just don't understand the statement. I mean no disrespect.

Allow me to present an alternative perspective:

You speak of Judaism, lets say, as being restrictive.
Perhaps to you it is restrictive.
Although, it might directly line up with my personal beliefs.
I might all ready be living its model and labeling myself Jewish.
Or converting to Judaism...
Alas, those would just be formalities.

Just as, if me or you were of differing sexualities.
My accepting of that sexuality does not imply I share it.
Or that I must partake in it.
That is your Will, not mine:
As long as one keeps the above notion in mind I do not see there being a problem.

[Soror Puella Lucis]

This sure is a funny time to be alive!

It could always be worse. At least folks like us aren't being hunted down and murdered anymore.

[ThelemicMage]

I will quote, not just Crowley, but Anhk ef na Khonsu, his admitted previous incarnation, and the name by which he is addressed by our Lady Nuit, in his recollections of this ancient life he lived in Egypt, "Across The Gulf", on the concept of Hell, and different levels of it:

"Then they gave me to drink of the Cup of the torment; and this is its virtue, that if one should speak
falsely, invoking the name of the goddess, he shall burn in hell visibly before all men for a thousand
years; and that flame shall never be put out. There is such an one in her temple in Memphis, for I
saw it with these eyes. There he burns and writhes and shrieks on the cold marble floor; and there
he shall burn till his time expire, and he sink to that more dreadful hell below the West. But I drank
thereof, and the celestial dew stood shining on my skin, and a coolness ineffable thrilled through
me; whereat they all rejoiced, and obeyed the voice of the Goddess that I had declared unto them."

Whoever said that Thelemites do not believe in "Hell" is seriously mistaken. "Hell" must be mentally apprehended, not feared and thus not talked about. We speak these things because we know we are picking up on the right track with Truth, divinity, and our higher selves, as ones who understand Thelema.

Leave no stone unturned, preferably while you leave no turn unstoned. Attention, focus, and meditating all the while letting go of your short term memory, (the "training wheels" of memory,) allows you to focus on the higher, permanent "deja-vu" concepts of long-term memory, (True Will and learned Intuition,) where access to the Akashic records of the Earth and Universe is relatively easy.

Picking up on everything around you, under you, (that flaming mass where souls have lost momentum and sunken to their obvious hells,) is all where it's at. Not about denying any part of reality. If one would wish to say that all is illusion, then it is in one's best interests to form all their words around that concept in an organized manner. One would wish not to cast doubt on something in particular that one would not wish to see or think about, more than one would cast doubt on any other thing that makes them more comfortable.

Finished. Teacher, may I go home now?