Reincarnation

Q&A and discussion on the world view encapsulating humanity's current stage of evolution

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Postby jw. » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:08 pm

nirbiraja wrote:While it's true some among us have with the utmost virtuous aims and sincerity have crossed the abyss unsuccessfully as a result of not being duly informed in the entirety of these sacred arts, it is by no way appropriate, insofar it concerns initiatory bodies, to contribute to more unnecessary travesties. And truth be told, those who attend to this unrefined philosophy I mention are more motivated by an unrelenting attachment to materialism to the point of not in the least acknowledging or caring about those who they make suffer, fatally, as a result. To them, it's not about cleansing the perceived weak and imperfect for a pristine union of Eden and Heaven; it's about their undying devotion and faith in soul being God and free will in terrestrial affinities.

One could just as easily state that belief in reincarnation is motivated by unrelenting attachment to existence, or perhaps even unrelenting fear of death. To some "cleansing the imperfect union" is beyond concepts like past and present, order and chaos, good and evil, material, spiritual; I will say it has to be beyond those concepts, otherwise it will ever be imperfect.

I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty,
not faith, while in life, upon death; peace
unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand
aught in sacrifice.
- The Book of the Law
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Postby Chris Hanlon » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:18 am

Dear N,
What good is your knowledge and being right, if you show no love or acceptance of others? Especially when they are on the same path as you. After all, how many people are on the Thelemic path, that you can even talk to?
A quote from a qabalist called Paul, here. Please don't assume I am either a Christian or a lovey-dovey person. I am not. To love well is to love tough. It is easier to be prickly, like you, and be safe than to love and be a fool. A divine fool that knows it is stepping off a cliff, and understanding it will hurt.
In L.V.X.,
chrys333

"1 Corinthians 13

Love

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
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Postby DELETED » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:55 pm

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Postby Edward Mason » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:04 pm

Nirbiraja, 93,

Do I want to be your friend? Sure. Should I let my guard down at this point? Hell no! Depending on how attached a Christian is to dying in Kether, and having others do the same; or dying in the abyss unsuccessfully, and having others do the same; or calling that in which causes the myriad manifestations of a human identity "god", and having others do the same; my body and being are are at risk.

My love is the way I write.

My love is wanting to one day know you as an eternal god.

My love, is for creation, and all within it.

Love under Will, to survive.

Okay, I'm curious. My understanding has always been that dissolution of dividual selfhood was the aim - <i>not</i> any kind of personal survival, whether we're talking about Thelema, Buddhism or mystical Hinduism and its various forms of yoga. If I understand your phrasing, you seem to be implying that dissolving is undesirable or threatening. This idea of being 'at risk' is hardly the same thing as "finding ecstasy in every phenomenon."

Clarify, please?

93 93/93,

EM
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Postby Edward Mason » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:59 pm

Nirbiraja, 93,

If you delve into Thelema as it was given in the Book of the Law deep enough, and consider the tradition showcased as the sole means to experience Thelema, Raja Yoga, you'll find that Hrumachis (Chockmah) trumps Kether (Ra-Hoor-Khuit).

I don't accept that Raja Yoga is the sole means of realizing True Will, nor of 'experiencing' (not sure what that means) Thelema. I'm not disparaging yoga's immense usefulness, but it is nowhere stated to be the 'sole means'. Each aspirant finds his or her sole (or multiple) means, which may or may nor include Raja Yoga, or other yogic practices.

I'm also having trouble with your term ' trumps'. Hrumachis, the double-wanded one, follows Horus as the next Grand Hierophant of the mysteries (Liber L, III, 34) . This is an orderly succession predicted by Ra-Hoor-Khuit, not the defeat implied in the word 'trumps'.

But my main concern, which is the reason I asked you about dissolution, is your emphasis on some manner of dividual selfhood. Union with capital-S Self inevitably results in dissolution. Yes, after the ecstasy and a resumption of 'normal' consciousness there is still a Hadit in relation to Nuit, but it is a changed one. Altering the key formula of "Love under will" to "Love under will, to survive" strikes me as being the complete <i>opposite</i> of all Crowley wrote and talked about.

In my view, a person with such a creed is forever at the mercy of his own fear of being diminished or harmed. And thus is paralyzed in fully enacting his True Will, however far his mystical practices may have taken him.

93 93/93,

EM
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Postby Edward Mason » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:16 pm

Argue to your heart's content. Our minds are made up.

Part ways.


I don't actually find any contentment in argument, which seems to be the diametrical opposite of your own stance.

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Postby jw. » Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:16 pm

nirbiraja wrote:
Edward Mason wrote:
nirbiraja wrote:Argue to your heart's content.
I don't actually find any contentment in argument, which seems to be the diametrical opposite of your own stance.
You asked for my clarification only to argue. Don't lie to yourself - least of all to me or the other readers.


Just because someone doesn't find contentment in argument, doesn't mean they won't pursue argument for other reasons. Perhaps you know EM better than the average reader here, but calling him a liar seems a bit myopic to me.
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Postby Edward Mason » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:35 am

As a matter of fact, I simply went to bed early. But it did occur to me before sleep that, as Some People Quickly Realize, trying to feed a narcissist's need for attention is a full-time job, and never a fulfilling one.

EM
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Postby Edward Mason » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:53 pm

Nirbiraja, 93,

Oh, you're a psychotherapist

No, an observer. One of the first things taught in a proper mystery school is careful observation of the donkey we ride in on. And that teaches us in turn to observe others. You offer some rich and shining ideas, some contentious ideas and some clunkers like the thing about Hrumachis 'trumping' Ra-Hoor-Khuit. I don't think it matters to you what response you generate, nor how offensive - just so long as you're noticed and <i>get</i> responses. (So I must be making you happy :)

and a Monotheist.

I find the vocabulary of monotheism a useful shorthand to play with. And I respect the concept in others if that's how they present their belief systems.

Why is this of such concern to you? I'm following my own path, but to you my core perspective needs a correction I've not asked you to provide. On what basis do you invite yourself into this position?

I'm suspicious. Your anti-monotheism seems just the same as monotheism, except in reverse: an obsession with a false idea that haunts you, while it intrigues but doesn't obsess me.

Very well. I'm a school teacher.

Says who? I don't recall inviting you to teach me! Of course you will incidentally, but most of what you say seems morose. Actually, much of what you say is incomprehensible (like your recent answer to Ash on the Three Curses), and the <b>tone</b> is morose. If you're suggesting people emulate you, I would point out that it won't be in the positive sense - just that of avoiding the example you present.

Seriously - I don't get it. Why must you be equated with Jim Eshelman or anyone else? Why must you be acknowledged as a teacher, as someone who can steer us across the Abyss? If you can, you will. If you protest you can, then you probably can't. Why such an urgent need for recognition?

I end up back at seeing narcissism. That, I suggest, is the most entrapping kind of monotheism possible, since atheism is hardly an option in relation to ourselves.

93 93/93,

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Postby Gideon Jagged » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:17 pm

nirbiraja wrote:The topic has long since ceased being about reincarnation. You've established you don't believe in it; you've established by way of a Freudian slip that you have interpreted Thelema in such a way so as to contradict it's more arcane and metaphysical aspects; and I honestly don't see a need in engaging you in a sort of bantering without a cause other than pushing your own unique metaphysic. If you want to create a thread specifically denoted to your pseudo-psychotherapy and/or projections to hide the fact that more than anything, you just can't fathom Thelema to be interpreted in a way other than your own, I'll happily engage you. But as it stands, I've you pegged; it's not the other way around. Do well to confront that, and we'll get along just fine.


And this, children, is a classic example of what we call Projection, or seeing in others what we cannot see in ourselves.

Here endeth the lesson.

Dan
—Gideon Jagged
Omnes deos sunt daemoniorum.
amazon.com/author/GideonJagged
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Postby gmugmble » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:22 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:I have direct experiences which confirm, well beyond any reasonable doubt, the certainty of a stream of prior existences.

I take this to mean that you have memories of past lives, and that you have some external evidence that confirms the details of these memories. Could you (in the interests of scientific illuminism, say) elaborate on this? I don't want to invade your privacy or step on things you hold sacred. But in the kazillions of words that are written about the occult, magic, etc., there are many claims, but very few first-person descriptions of actual experiences, and I think this is a shame.

Also, what techniques did you use to acquire past life memories?

Thanks.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:11 pm

gmugmble wrote:I take this to mean that you have memories of past lives, and that you have some external evidence that confirms the details of these memories. Could you (in the interests of scientific illuminism, say) elaborate on this? I don't want to invade your privacy or step on things you hold sacred. But in the kazillions of words that are written about the occult, magic, etc., there are many claims, but very few first-person descriptions of actual experiences, and I think this is a shame.

As you correctly discern, these are extremely personal so I'm going to decline to elaborate them in public. The people closest to me have access to the information.

Also, what techniques did you use to acquire past life memories?

There are specific methods of regression, and certain ways to act as a catalyst for this in others. But the largest block came efro eventually opened memory. As one progresses deeper into the grades of A.'.A.'. (or their equivalent), more and more aspects of one's being open up. Even the Path of Shin, which is worked by the Zelator often opens up time-independent memories.

Here's a trick, though - at least, it is so in my case and I bet it is fairly true for others. Aside from the fact that any particular prior life, under the right conditions, can be "jumped" to in the same way that you can "jump" to (say) a 7-year-old memory without tracing all the intervening time, there are interesting characteristics of linear memory of this sort. As an example. though I have pretty substantial memories of each of my two immediately prior lives, it is harder to jump straight back to two lives ago than it is to get there "through" the intervening one. That is, from my present perspective I can remember back to my immediately prior life, and he can apply the same thread to remember intimate details of the one before - things I wasn't able to get otherwise, perhaps because they aren't as relevant to my present life as they were to his.
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Postby jlpugh » Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:56 pm

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

What about "new" souls? How do they fit into these models?

It should be noted that, because of the way population increases, there must constantly be an influx of new souls to account for the number of human beings currently alive, even if every one currently living has had only one past life. (who claims only one?)

Just thought this was good theoretical fodder.

Perhaps this accounts for the few Thelemites who do not believe in reincarnation!

Another possibility would be that souls can split into parts between incarnations...?

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:01 pm

jlpugh wrote:What about "new" souls? How do they fit into these models?

I have known people who gave every indication of having their first human incarnation. Not their first incarnation - just their first human one. They may have come from the animal kingdom or, from their natures, more likely from one of the kingdoms of Elementals, having finally become a Microcosm.

It should be noted that, because of the way population increases, there must constantly be an influx of new souls to account for the number of human beings currently alive, even if every one currently living has had only one past life. (who claims only one?)

While I think there are, indeed, souls having their first human incarnations, I don't necessarily agree with the math part of what you've said. Beings could be incarnating more rapidly (less "down time"), for example. There are other possibilities.

Just thought this was good theoretical fodder.

Agreed.
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Postby jw. » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:56 pm

jlpugh wrote:Perhaps this accounts for the few Thelemites who do not believe in reincarnation!

Say you live decades being familiar with one 'bubble' of memories. You have no frame of reference for any other bubble but your own. Every time you've remember something out of the blue, its been your memory (as far as you can tell). So if suddenly your mind becomes aware of other bubbles of memories, it seems natural that you would assume them to be your memories, right? If you choose (consciously or unconsciously) to identify with some bubble of memory, then reincarnation seems to be a pretty good explanation (especially if you come to the memories via temporal regression exercises). The concept still leaves the problem of explaining the seemingly persistent nature of memories. Part of me can't help but wonder though, if people with more knowledge of human history identify with more interesting or varied past lives that those ignorant of history.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:11 pm

jw wrote:Say you live decades being familiar with one 'bubble' of memories. You have no frame of reference for any other bubble but your own. Every time you've remember something out of the blue, its been your memory (as far as you can tell). So if suddenly your mind becomes aware of other bubbles of memories, it seems natural that you would assume them to be your memories, right?

Well, not necessarily. There is a very different feel between one's own memories and "just other images" that go through one's mind. For example, there is a big difference in the feel of remembering your own past or remembering the vivid, compelling story of a movie or literary character.

Part of me can't help but wonder though, if people with more knowledge of human history identify with more interesting or varied past lives that those ignorant of history.

Good theory. Or, alternately, one at least is better able to recognize what one is seeing. - Of course, this doesn't explain memories that come arise years before one learns anything, by conventional means, about the period in question.
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Postby jlpugh » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:47 pm

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Jim Eshelman wrote:I have known people who gave every indication of having their first human incarnation. Not their first incarnation - just their first human one. They may have come from the animal kingdom or, from their natures, more likely from one of the kingdoms of Elementals, having finally become a Microcosm.

Cool. Did they get animal and/or elemental memories through the same kinds of regression used for past lives?

Hypothetically, could it be the case that your first human incarnation is also your last?

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:08 am

jlpugh wrote:Cool. Did they get animal and/or elemental memories through the same kinds of regression used for past lives?

No. (Though I've had such memories myself, especially at one point in my early 20s when dozens of them came through.)

The individuals that come most vividly to mind seem to have come from the Elemental kingdoms (and to have retained their connection to the world of Fay or Deva).

Very young souls superficially resemble very mature souls. The superficial similarity is that they seem naturally connected to spiritual worlds. But for the very young souls this is because they have barely left them, have hardly emerged out of them. They have a tendency to be enormously curious and keenly alert, to have almost an idiot's capacity for natural happiness (and corresponding capacity to be deeply hurt). Even as adults, unless very badly treated as children, they carry a child-like sense of wonder, ability to smile, and ability to trigger a smile. Even when hurt, they tend to spring back with a child's resiliency pretty much regardless of their age. Etc.

Hypothetically, could it be the case that your first human incarnation is also your last?

Hypothetically? Sure. Do I think it has ever happened? No. We live hundreds of lives (which is a drop in the bucket in the time stream of our existence).
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Postby jw. » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:34 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
jw wrote:Say you live decades being familiar with one 'bubble' of memories. You have no frame of reference for any other bubble but your own. Every time you've remember something out of the blue, its been your memory (as far as you can tell). So if suddenly your mind becomes aware of other bubbles of memories, it seems natural that you would assume them to be your memories, right?

Well, not necessarily. There is a very different feel between one's own memories and "just other images" that go through one's mind. For example, there is a big difference in the feel of remembering your own past or remembering the vivid, compelling story of a movie or literary character.


Well, typically one remembers a book or movie as an observer, not as a participant. If the memory bubble contains first-person memories (perhaps a residual memory of some prior individual drifting about in a collective unconsciousness), then it may account for the process. The backward momentum of the regression experiment may account for why these lives appear to be along a single line of succession (even if they aren't recalled in order). In other words, I'm not disputing that these may be memories of past lives; but I think there may be a difference between saying "I remember my past lives" and "I remember past lives". The "practical" application wouldn't be terribly different either way, except perhaps in one's attitude toward attachment to one's identity.
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