Polygamy/Polyamory

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Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Mercurius » Sun May 26, 2013 1:03 pm

Anyone have experience with Polygamy/Polyamory? Just curious what the social dynamics are like. If no one has any experience, curious about thoughts on it.
Personally I think Polygamy is what nature intended although monogamy is more befitting some people. There is some science to back this up and was even initially surprised to see some feminists who supported the idea of Polygamy. How does this fit in with Thelema per se? It's a more libertine idealogy, especially in its approach to sexuality and interpersonal relationships. Also, "Store of Women"? :)
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Takamba » Sun May 26, 2013 2:44 pm

Polygamy is simply defined as a marriage (key point there) that involves more than two partners. There is not requirement that the partners be of one gender or the other. Your own limitation has led you to believe it is "Arabic."

Polyamorous is a multi-partner relationship that is not a marriage.

I've had several years experience with what I simply call the "Open Relationship" model. This allows for both partners to freely explore their desires outside the restrictions of a single-partner relationship without having to go through guilt trips and self-denial. Exploring beyond the bounds of a monogamous relationship is not always about sexual activity. It can sometimes be merely the thrill of having a very close friend who engages in other activities that are of great interest to you. Unfortunately in a lot of today's monogamous, simply preferring to dance with someone other than who you have sex with seems to create a lot of petty jealousy and self-loathing. (that's just an example)

in short, I recommend exploring the praetermonogamous relationship idea, but to do so you must really be strong in yourself and not dependent on relationships in the first place to define yourself to yourself. All the partners in such a relationship must be fully aware of the conditions of the relationship (the rules, so to speak) and most importantly, the idea is foster total honesty with everyone involved.

I wouldn't say it is for everyone. If you have "hangups" about "ownership" in a relationship (either consciously knowing that you need to put a ring on it or unconsciously fearing being "pwned" by the opposite sex), I would recommend a solitary life or a monotonous relationship instead.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun May 26, 2013 6:55 pm

Very common in my life, and most of the sub-cultures I've been in for the last 40 years. Way too big a subject, and there are lengthy, extensive discussions available... lots of things written over the decades.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Thom Sparrow » Sun May 26, 2013 8:00 pm

It's an idea that I've been exploring a lot, lately. It makes sense to me, but at this point I can only speak based on ideas, not experience.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Corvinae » Mon May 27, 2013 4:42 am

Your own limitation has led you to believe it is "Arabic


Kasper said Abrahamic not Arabic. Many Arabs are not Abrahamic, and many followers of Abrahamic paths are not Arabs.

I find it very interesting that in many places it is actually against the written law to be in a polygamist relationship. polygamy is a legal contract, where vows and oaths are taken. I suspect that the real reason these contracts are legislated against has more to do with economics then morals. It would seem that the income tax and dependent spouses and offspring would make calculating taxes very tricky in these situations.

I have noticed in nature that certain creatures do have a mutually beneficial relationship in a male dominated (one alpha male only) "poly" set up. Apes, lions and deer have one male and a group of females.

Yet there is no example of this sort of group in which you have one alpha female with a host of males.. At least none in the higher kingdoms that I have seen, with the sole supreme example in the insects. Bees, ants, and wasps are all I have come across, but from what I understand those males are drones, more like eunuchs.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Takamba » Mon May 27, 2013 5:18 am

Angel of Death wrote:
Your own limitation has led you to believe it is "Arabic

Kasper said Abrahamic not Arabic. Many Arabs are not Abrahamic, and many followers of Abrahamic paths are not Arabs.

Thank you for correcting me. You are correct, but it changed none of my message.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Uni_Verse » Mon May 27, 2013 5:29 am

I feel the attraction of monogamy is the stability : this is a person who is going to be with you the rest of your life.
"We are in this together"

Takamba wrote: Unfortunately in a lot of today's monogamous, simply preferring to dance with someone other than who you have sex with seems to create a lot of petty jealousy and self-loathing. (that's just an example)


Ug, do not even get me started on this.

Angel of Death wrote: Bees, ants, and wasps are all I have come across, but from what I understand those males are drones, more like eunuchs.


With Bees, the colony is all female. A male comes around only when the Queen needs to be fertilized.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Corvinae » Mon May 27, 2013 5:33 am

The way the conversation read to me was Kasper noted how he saw these choices as Abrahamic in most cases.
which is a limitation yes, but then it seemed like you were pointing out how limited he was being, but then further restricted his observation by saying Arabic.
Which would seem to imply you hadn't either read his statement correctly, or that you yourself hold some limits that maybe you weren't aware of, or something else entirely like spell checker hijacked your word processor and interjected Arabic instead of Abrahamic.

Since I know how much you like to point out when other people misspell and use poor grammar, and are just wrong, I knew that you would be thankful to be reminded that no ones perfect, we all make mistakes, we are forgiven and that we can all work on being better, with out sounding like we are constantly attacking each other.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Corvinae » Mon May 27, 2013 5:42 am

With Bees, the colony is all female. A male comes around only when the Queen needs to be fertilized

Really, because that is not the information I got from the local bee organization when I took the scouts there for the annual honey harvest.

Male drones make honey, they come from unfertilized eggs.

But regardless then, in nature it is very difficult to find sexually active males with only one female. In fact I would guess that it would not be a sustainable system. The female would be getting laid all the time, the males would end up in homosexual behaviors and the procreation of the species would have a disadvantage. (I'm not referring to human behavior, but more like bonobos, dolphins, and other creatures which do have sex for pleasure and form group ties. )
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Uni_Verse » Mon May 27, 2013 6:04 am

Angel of Death wrote:Really, because that is not the information I got from the local bee organization when I took the scouts there for the annual honey harvest.


I just looked it up and appear to be wrong o.O
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Takamba » Mon May 27, 2013 6:08 am

If we're interested in the scientific data as to how nature supports monogamy or not, there are twenty animals out of all the known species (other than humans) that mate for life:

Gibbon apes, wolves, termites, coyotes, barn owls, beavers, bald eagles, golden eagles, condors, swans, brolga cranes, French angel fish, sandhill cranes, pigeons, prions, red-tailed hawks, anglerfish, ospreys, prairie voles, black vultures.

So if one where one of those "I learn from nature" types, then along with killing and eating for survival, one would learn that monogamy is not a given but an exception.

*addendum: Even among the above listed "faithful" species, cheating is common.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Corvinae » Mon May 27, 2013 6:10 am

Well there are lots of different types of bees, maybe you are right about other types, and it is only this case with honey bees.

It was really cool harvesting honey btw.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Uni_Verse » Mon May 27, 2013 8:00 am

A good read is the 3rd Chapter in Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, where this quote comes from:

Mother, monogamy, romance. High spurts the fountain; fierce and foamy the wild jet. The urge has but a single outlet. My love, my baby. No wonder these poor pre-moderns were mad and wicked and miserable. Their world didn't allow them to take things easily, didn't allow them to be sane, virtuous, happy. What with mothers and lovers, what with the prohibitions they were not conditioned to obey, what with the temptations and the lonely remorses, what with all the diseases and the endless isolating pain, what with the uncertainties and the poverty–they were forced to feel strongly. And feeling strongly (and strongly, what was more, in solitude, in hopelessly individual isolation), how could they be stable?
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Hermes » Mon May 27, 2013 8:09 am

I see monogamy as a lie. Nothing wrong with it as far as you dont believe it.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Uni_Verse » Mon May 27, 2013 10:45 am

Frater Horus wrote:I see monogamy as a lie. Nothing wrong with it as far as you dont believe it.


I think that may be how it appears in todays society.
Where things such as marriage have become a joke,
With Men constantly tearing asunder what has been ordained before God.
Another way we have drugged children with fairy tales,
That later the parent might smirk, and say
"That is just a story I told you when you were young... "

Though, let us also be clear: polyamorous does not mean promiscuous
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby oldfriend56 » Mon May 27, 2013 12:35 pm

Frater Horus wrote:I see monogamy as a lie. Nothing wrong with it as far as you dont believe it.

I'm very progressive and believe that polyamory, threesomes, any *novelty* regarding human relationships is adventurous - but when it comes to one on one - maybe I am old fashioned but i believe there is something divine as well regarding an extended romantic union.

Consider, Nuit and Hadit dont seem to require any other bed fellows at the party ;)
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon May 27, 2013 1:16 pm

Uni_Verse wrote:I feel the attraction of monogamy is the stability : this is a person who is going to be with you the rest of your life. "We are in this together"

That's the theory, of course :twisted: Statistically, we know that this works no more than half the time. (And that's just quantity, not quality.)

And, in theory, I see no way to distinguish "We two are in this together" from (for example) "We three are in this together." The only difference evident to me is the greater attention and effort required to maintain the more complex interrelationships. With three people, you have three separate relationships instead of one; with five people, you have 10 separate relationships. This requires a lot more work and attention. - And it is as likely that the greater attention and work would actually give a better result than the "take it for granted, don't actively work on it" pattern that that majority of two-person relationships fall into.

Angel of Death wrote: Bees, ants, and wasps are all I have come across, but from what I understand those males are drones, more like eunuchs.

With Bees, the colony is all female. A male comes around only when the Queen needs to be fertilized.

Sounds like a plan.

I just gave a Temple of Thelema workshop, one topic of which was "care and feeding of the vagina." One of the fascinating biological details I included is that, although men and women both have strong chemical cocktails of dopamine, opioids, and oxytocin released into their brains in the arousal-through-climax cycle, the distribution of these chemicals is different in men and women. For example, after orgasm, men's dopamine levels drop off rapidly, whereas women's dopamine levels continue to rise. Both sexes have strong oxytocin release, but women get more of it.

The net effect is (as a generalization across the species, varying with age and other consideration), men are "one peak wonders" and women are "distance runners." The most natural consequence of this mix is that (1) men are done for the moment and may tend to fall asleep, and (2) women are wired to keep going, socially and communicatively engage, and exhibit behaviors that move toward having another orgasm. On a pure biologically functioning level, it makes more sense for her to pursue further orgasms - and not necessarily with the same partner. (Five orgasms. Line up five guys. "Next!")

In thinking about how nature could have benefitted from this (why it would have sorted out that way in evolution), I came to a quick answer. Nature benefits from expanded genetic diversification - the opportunity for more and varied genetic mixes. Historically, it has been held that men accomplish this for the species by being able to wander about (even across large expanses of geography) impregnating a lot of women. It's often argued that one man could theoretically have hundreds of children in the time it takes a woman to have one. (270 days for a typical gestation, three seed-plantings a day, a fourth of them "take seed" - that's 200 births right there.) But it would be highly inefficient of nature to have let only half of a species contribute to this vitally important point of genetic diversification. On learning the above biochemical facts and their implications, I suddenly understood that women contribute to the same thing by having sex with many men in a short term (under a day) so that a wider variety of sperm are "competing: for the same egg.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Hermes » Mon May 27, 2013 1:48 pm

oldfriend56 wrote:
Frater Horus wrote:I see monogamy as a lie. Nothing wrong with it as far as you dont believe it.

I'm very progressive and believe that polyamory, threesomes, any *novelty* regarding human relationships is adventurous - but when it comes to one on one - maybe I am old fashioned but i believe there is something divine as well regarding an extended romantic union.

Consider, Nuit and Hadit dont seem to require any other bed fellows at the party ;)


I agree, actually.There might be a princess charming who is not horrified by my Bukowskiesque ways. That would be divine.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Starry Soul » Mon May 27, 2013 10:05 pm

Time will tell.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Alrah » Tue May 28, 2013 5:41 am

Animal dominance behaviour at work in the species mean men compete for women. Therefore when we talk of polygamy we are usually talking about man with several female partners and it's extremely rare to find women in settled consensual relationships that have several partners.

In general, individuals of the species are just getting the hang of mastering their sexuality and being 'not animal'. However- social dynamics is at least as important a part of the Nephesh as sexuality and it is extremely rare (one in thousands) to meet individuals that are aware of and display mastery over the Nephesh in respect of the social sphere. Yet - in almost all cases, the interference of the true will arises from this aspect of the Nephesh.

Instead of doing their true will, people blindly obey authority figures in accord with their social conditioning. Instead of doing their true will, people blindly will conform to group norms and more, or they will practise bystander behaviour, or they will scapegoat people or be scapegoated, or they will just do anything to fit in. And this is as true of people who are achieving dominance in the social sphere as well as the submissives - through becoming overly controlling or getting ego invested in power and status (for example). It's all just animal/nephesh reactions and until a person can get past that then they are of the Man of Earth grade, and no MOE is fit to have more than one women at a time. They simply have not earned their spurs.
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Thom Sparrow » Tue May 28, 2013 5:59 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:The net effect is (as a generalization across the species, varying with age and other consideration), men are "one peak wonders" and women are "distance runners." The most natural consequence of this mix is that (1) men are done for the moment and may tend to fall asleep, and (2) women are wired to keep going, socially and communicatively engage, and exhibit behaviors that move toward having another orgasm. On a pure biologically functioning level, it makes more sense for her to pursue further orgasms - and not necessarily with the same partner. (Five orgasms. Line up five guys. "Next!")

In thinking about how nature could have benefitted from this (why it would have sorted out that way in evolution), I came to a quick answer. Nature benefits from expanded genetic diversification - the opportunity for more and varied genetic mixes. Historically, it has been held that men accomplish this for the species by being able to wander about (even across large expanses of geography) impregnating a lot of women. It's often argued that one man could theoretically have hundreds of children in the time it takes a woman to have one. (270 days for a typical gestation, three seed-plantings a day, a fourth of them "take seed" - that's 200 births right there.) But it would be highly inefficient of nature to have let only half of a species contribute to this vitally important point of genetic diversification. On learning the above biochemical facts and their implications, I suddenly understood that women contribute to the same thing by having sex with many men in a short term (under a day) so that a wider variety of sperm are "competing: for the same egg.

Interesting stuff. From the other direction, there is the Coolidge Effect:

Human males experience a post-ejaculatory refractory period after sex. They are temporarily incapable of engaging in sex with the same female after ejaculation and require time to recover full sexual function. In popular reference, the Coolidge effect is the well-documented phenomenon that the post-ejaculatory refractory period is reduced or eliminated if a novel female becomes available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Alrah » Tue May 28, 2013 6:21 am

My ex could cum 7 times or more in a row... it took him perhaps 20 seconds to get back to business. Don't put all males in the same category!

(Of course... he was Golden Dawn trained so... ;-) )
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue May 28, 2013 7:32 am

Alrah wrote:My ex could cum 7 times or more in a row... it took him perhaps 20 seconds to get back to business. Don't put all males in the same category!

I most pointedly did not. :D Hence my, "(as a generalization across the species, varying with age and other consideration)."
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Alrah » Tue May 28, 2013 7:52 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Alrah wrote:My ex could cum 7 times or more in a row... it took him perhaps 20 seconds to get back to business. Don't put all males in the same category!

I most pointedly did not. :D Hence my, "(as a generalization across the species, varying with age and other consideration)."


:D And if anyone doubts Mr Eshelman as to the fraternal exceptions to the rule they should take a look at his gorgeous and very happy looking wife...;-)
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Re: Polygamy/Polyamory

Postby Faust » Wed May 29, 2013 4:02 am

An important aspect of a relationship is the growth of intimacy in an almost “bhakti” way. The few cases of open relationships I saw where using the “opening” as a device to avoid deeper levels of intimacy, especially those that were somehow disturbing or unpleasant. I’ve also experienced the same tendency myself.

Of course I do not believe that it is some sort of rule, but It would be interesting to hear how others have dealt with it.
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