Argument on Thelema

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Argument on Thelema

Postby FraterTeth » Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:25 pm

Okay, so got this dude yapping about Thelema, thought I'd ask if anyone had any good, legitimate input. Thread is as follows:

Alester Crowley set up all the Globalist and NWO blueprints for the numerous secret societies out there. He himself had so many Masonic degrees that it would fill up 2 pages. The only person who comes in a close second was the traitor Albert Pike. Alester Crowley's heart was also the most evil of all time. Let's just say if that man had the power of Hitler or Stalin, he may have desired to kill billions. Crowley was also said to be to the AntiChrist what John the Baptist was to Lord Jesus.

One of his main hobbies was sacrificing boys. He once sadistically stated that a young white male made the perfect sacrificial subject.

Let’s get something straight. Thelema is most certainly satanic, but it is not in any way, whatsoever, Satanism. Now, I am sure many reading this statement will ask, what’s the difference? The answer lies in the role Satan plays.

With my Hawk’s head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.

Aleister Crowley, Liber AL vel Legis, III:51

Satanism, as represented by Christianity and by self-proclaimed Satanists, revolves around the figure of Satan, regardless of whether Satan is considered objectively real or solely mythological. Satan is real and the focus of worship, according to the Christians, and in institutional Satanism, Satan is either a central model, but is unreal, such as in the Church of Satan; or is real and has an active role in the initiation of the individual as in the Temple of Set. Then there are the many, many other Satan-focused groups where Satan plays an important role in some fashion. All these forms of Satanism are satanic. They reject, or even oppose the doctrine and practices of Christianity and are associated with Satan in some form. But not all religions or groups that are satanic are forms of Satanism.

Our religion therefore, for the People, is the Cult of the Sun, who is our particular star of the Body of Nuit, from whom, in the strictest scientific sense, come this earth, a chilled spark of Him, and all our Light and Life. His vice-regent and representative in the animal kingdom is His cognate symbol the Phallus, representing Love and Liberty. Ra-Hoor-Khuit, like all true Gods, is therefore a Solar-Phallic deity.

Aleister Crowley, New Comment to Liber AL, verse III:22

Thelema is a solar-phallic gnostic religio-philosophy, or religion as some prefer to call it. It opposes the beliefs and practices of Christianity — among other religions — and offers in its place the central role of the individual and the procreative aspects of life, symbolized by both the sun and the phallus. It is satanic because it opposes the assertions of Judaism and Christianity regarding the role God, Jesus, original sin, and so forth, and values the myth of Satan as one who rebelled again Jehovah. Thelema rejects all these notions that enslave humanity to a deity that would demand certain beliefs and actions and punish those who disobey. Satan represents the rejection of this belief system and the exultation of the individual. Is Satan central to Thelema? No. Is Satan mentioned in Thelema? Yes, frequently.

It is also to be considered that Nu is connected with North, while Had is Sad, Set, Satan, Sat (equals “Being” in Sanskrit), South. He is then the Sun, one point concentring Space, as also is any other star. The word ABRAHADABRA is from Abrasax, Father Sun, which adds to 365.

ibid., verse I:1

Satan, as illustrated above, is often lumped together with other deities from various mythologies (including Christianity) and is organized according to classical characteristics. Satan is associated with the south, with the element fire or air.1 These are also the elements associated with the Egyptian god, Ra, the sun. So is Satan important in the Thelemic system? Yes. Is he the central figure or model worshipped? No. Satan is just one deity of many associated with some aspect of the solar-phallus which is the central idea or thing worshipped in Thelema. This becomes even more apparent when one examines the suggested rituals of Thelema devised by Aleister Crowley. They mention numerous deities and names of God, but rarely does Satan comes up, and usually only in commentaries.2 So why does Satan come up in the first place? Thelema uses the divine names, images, stories and characteristics of a variety of religions and mythologies in its literature and practice. The central deities in Liber AL, are represented as Egyptian. Crowley frequently makes reference to classical mythologies of the Greeks and Romans—such as in his Hymn to Pan, or his use of the Greek name, To Mega Therion. But probably the most influential mythology informing and underlying Thelema is that of the Abrahamic myths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. This is apparent in a variety of places including Crowley’s moniker, The Great Beast, a reference to the Book of Revelation. Other influences on Thelema directly related to Christianity are its millennialism, its emphasis on texts, and the use of certain names and actions in ritual, including the Gnostic Mass, which was modelled on a Christian Eucharistic ceremony. Crowley’s own background and the immersion in fundamentalist Protestantism resulted in a significant Christian influence on Thelema. Sometimes this manifested in symbolism, action, or belief. Other times it emerged as a distinct anti-Christian rhetoric, action, or belief. This is why the symbol of Satan, as the adversary or rebel to the Christian god, was a frequent theme in Crowley’s work

Those who try to downplay Satan’s presence in Thelemic material are trying to white wash Thelema’s distinct anti-Christian nature and the valuing of the myth of Satan. But being anti-Christian, however, does not mean Thelema is a form of Satanism. It does, however, mean that Thelema is certainly satanic. Ultimately the difference comes down to semantics. Do Thelemites worship Satan — as deity or otherwise? No. Is Satan a common and potent symbol in Thelemic literature? Yes. For some, the simple mention of Satan in a positive light is enough to claim Thelema is a form of Satanism. This type of thinking, however, would also mean that Thelema is an Egyptian religion, as it frequently mentions Egyptian deities; is a Hellenistic religion, as it frequently references classical Greek deities; as well as a Roman religion and a form of Islam, because all these mythologies are referenced positively in Thelemic literature. Thelemic literature values the myth of Satan, its symbolism and narrative without immediately jumping to the worship of Satan. Thus, Thelema is satanic but is not a form of Satanism.

Ya I know. Little bit about this subject. Don't leave yet brother, I'm going to mathematically show you how false your beliefs system is. And I'm going to prove to you that the same people that you represent are the same people that are in fact plotting out the depopulation of this planet. And just becouse some ding doing free mason (alester crowlley) made a bogus system of belief, doesn't mean it real. Stay tuned brother. I mean no disrespect in any way.

Crowley (1875-1947) was the Master Satanist of the 20th Century

The hierarchy of the Secret-Societies have been deeply involved in the Black-Occult since they have existed. This includes the ritual sacrifice of children and babies. This knowledge has been kept from the minds of society at large until more recently. It is now only a matter of time when the masses of the people become fully aware of the real agenda behind the secret societies and the true purpose of why they exist.

Aleister Crowley — Initiated to the highest levels of Freemasonry and high priest of the Golden Dawn, said: "A white male child of perfect innocence and intelligence makes the most suitable victim."

In the US each year 400,000 children are reported missing.
In the UK,98,000 children are reported missing.

Shockingly, Aleister Crowley's famous saying, DO AS THOU WILT, actually came from Benjamin Franklin. Franklin was an occultist, Satanist and indulged in child sacrifice. Franklin attended the drunken, ritual orgies of a secret society called, among other things, the Hellfire Club. They would get drunk, dress prostitutes up like Nuns and have orgies in underground caves, which resembled Black Masses (although they "worshipped" pagan deities Bacchus and Venus). While not actual professed Satanists, their motto Fait ce que vouldras (Do what thou wilt) was later used by Satanist Aleister Crowley. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction.
The Marilyn Manson song “Misery Machine” contains the lyrics, “We’re gonna ride to the abbey of Thelema.” The Abbey of Thelema was the temple of Satanist Aleister Crowley.
The self-proclaimed "World's Most Wicked Man" ate the feces of women during bizarre sexual acts involving Luciferian worship and Satanism. According to the shocking documentary film titled, "IN SEARCH OF THE GREAT BEAST" directed by Robert Garofalo and produced by Lyn Beardsall (2007), Barbara Bush (wife of President George H. Bush) is the daughter of the world's most infamous Satanist, Aleister Crowley.
President George H. Bush Married to the Daughter of Aleister Crowley?

Crowley's Large Influence Upon Rock Music (and it's fans)

Lest you think that Aleister Crowley (born Edward Alexander Crowley, 1875-1947) was just some crazy fool that no one took seriously, think again. Crowley has had a large influence upon modern rock music. Unbeknownst to most Americans, much of the Hellish music which they idolize was written and sang by devout followers of Crowley and his Satanism.

Guitarist Jimmy Page of Zeppelin is a devout follower of Satanist, Aleister Crowley, who proclaimed himself as "The Beast 666". Aleister Crowley was also a 33rd and 97th Degree Freemason and is recognized as the master Satanist of the 20th century. In 1971, guitarist Jimmy Page bought Crowley’s Boleskine House on the shore of Loch Ness where Crowley practiced his hellish, satanic sex-magick rituals, including human sacrifices. Guitarist Jimmy Page actually performed Crowley magical rituals during their concerts. Their song "Stairway to Heaven" carries the reference "May Queen," which is purportedly the name of a hideous poem written by Crowley. Page had inscribed in the vinyl of their album Led Zeppelin III, Crowley's famous "Do what thou wilt. So mete it Be.’ Page and Robert Plant claim some of Zeppelins' songs came via occultic "automatic handwriting," including their popular "Stairway to Heaven."

The cover of the Sergeant Pepper's album by the Beatles showed a background of, according to Ringo Starr, people "we like and admire" (Hit Parade, Oct. 1976, p.14). Paul McCartney said of Sgt. Pepper's cover, ". . . we were going to have photos on the wall of all our HEROES . . ." (Musician, Special Collectors Edition, - Beatles and Rolling Stones, 1988, p.12). One of the Beatle's heroes included on the cover of Sgt. Pepper's was — the infamous Satanist, Aleister Crowley! Most people, especially in 1967, did not even know who Crowley was — but the Beatles certainly did

The Beatles apparently took Crowley's teaching very serious — Beatle John Lennon, in an interview, says the "whole idea of the Beatles" was — Crowley's infamous "do what thou wilt":
"The whole Beatle idea was to do what you want, right? To take your own responsibility, do what you want and try not to harm other people, right? DO WHAT THOU WILST, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody. . ." ("The Playboy Interviews with John Lennon and Yoko Ono", by David Sheff and G. Barry Golson, p. 61)
Paul McCartney and Lennon were Satanists as well

Photo to left: Most people recognize the Satanic hand sign which John Lennon is making at the bottom right; but, few people realize that the "ok" sign which Paul McCartney is making at the bottom left is also very Satanic. The "ok" sign is actually three 6's, each of the three vertical fingers forming an individual 6. 666!

Crowley has had a great influence on rock & roll. The International Times voted Crowley “the unsung hero of the hippies.” One man who helped popularized Crowley’s work among rockers is avant-garde film artist Kenneth Anger. He claimed that his films were inspired by Crowley’s philosophy and called them “visual incantations” and “moving spells.” Anger considered Crowley a unique genius. Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones and Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin both scored soundtracks for Anger’s films about Crowley. See “Led Zeppelin” for more about Page’s enthusiasm for Crowley.

Crowley’s photo appeared on the Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper album cover. The Beatles testified that the characters who appeared on the album were their “heroes.” John Lennon explained to Playboy magazine that “the whole Beatle idea was to do what you want … do what thou wilst, as long as it doesn’t hurt somebody” (Lennon, cited by David Sheff, The Playboy Interviews with John Lennon and Yoko Ono, p. 61). This was precisely what Crowley taught.

Ozzy Osbourne called Crowley “a phenomenon of his time” (Circus, Aug. 26, 1980, p. 26). Ozzy even had a song called “Mr. Crowley.” “You fooled all the people with magic/ You waited on Satan's call / … Mr. Crowley, won't you ride my white horse…”

On the back cover of the Doors 13 album, Jim Morrison and the other members of the Doors are shown posing with a bust of Aleister Crowley.

David Bowie referred to Crowley in his song “Quicksand” from the album The Man Who Sold the World.

Graham Bond thought he was Crowley’s illegitimate son and recorded albums of satanic rituals with his band Holy Magick.

Iron Maiden lead singer Bruce Dickinson said: “… we’ve referred to things like the tarot and ideas of people like Aleister Crowley” (Circus, Aug. 31, 1984). Their song “The Number of the Beast” said, “666, the number of the beast/ 666, the one for you and me.” Crowley was called the Beast.

Daryl Hall of the rock duo Hall and Oates admits that he follows Crowley. “I became fascinated with Aleister Crowley, the nineteenth-century British magician who shared those beliefs. … I was fascinated by him because his personality was the late-nineteenth-century equivalent of mine—a person brought up in a conventionally religious family who did everything he could to outrage the people around him as well as himself” (Rock Lives: Profiles and Interviews, p. 584). Hall owns a signed and numbered copy of Crowley’s The Book of Thoth (about an Egyptian god).

Sting, formerly of the Police, has spent many hours studying Crowley’s writings.

Stiv Bators, lead singer for The Dead Boys and Lords of the New Church, had a song titled “Do What Thou Wilt/ This Is the Law,” after the philosophy of Satanist Aleister Crowley. In another song Bators sang: “I heard the Devil curse/ I recognized my name.”

LSD guru Timothy Leary was a Crowley enthusiast. He said: “I’ve been an admirer of Aleister Crowley. I think that I’m carrying on much of the work that he started over a hundred years ago … He was in favor of finding yourself, and ‘Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law’ under love. It was a very powerful statement. I’m sorry he isn’t around now to appreciate the glories he started” (Late Night America, Public Broadcasting Network, cited by Hells Bells, Reel to Real Ministries).

The Marilyn Manson song “Misery Machine” contains the lyrics, “We’re gonna ride to the abbey of Thelema.” The Abbey of Thelema was the temple of Satanist Aleister Crowley.
If ever there was a God-hating degenerate, it was Aleister Crowley ...
33° Mason, Aleister Crowley would definitely get some votes in the "most wicked man who ever lived contest" and is the clear cut favorite for the title of "The Father of Modern Satanism". Crowley's wicked life and his intimate association with Freemasonry are both well known.

Crowley himself was terribly decadent. A happily heroin-addicted, bisexual Satan worshiper, he asked people to call him "The Beast 666." Crowley believed that he was literally the antimessiah of the apocalypse.

During the first World War, Crowley transferred his activities to America. The press proclaimed him "the wickedest man in the world." He also spent time in Italy, but was expelled because Italian authorities accused his disciples of sacrificing human infants in occult rituals. According to one source, Crowley resided in the Abbey of Thelema near Cefalu Sicily, and revived ancient Dionysian ceremonies. During a 1921 ritual, he induced a he-goat to copulate with his mistress, then slit the animal's throat at the moment of orgasm. —SOURCE
A very popular Rock band around the world is MINISTRY, formed by Al Jourgensen in 1981. Jourgensen retired in 2008. The band's music is totally blasphemous against the Bible, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father. Here are the repulsive lyrics to their despicable song PSALM 69, from the album titled, Psalm 69: The Way To Succeed And To Suck Eggs lyrics taken directly from Aleister Crowley's works of darkness...

PSALM 69, by the band MINISTRY (written by Al Jourgensen)

congregation, please be seated and open your prayer guides to the book
of revelations, psalm 69

drinking the blood of jesus
drinking it right from his veins
learning to swim in the ocean
learning to prowl in his name

the body of christ looked unto me
a preacher with god-given hands
he wants you to suck on the holy ghost
and swallow the sins of man

psalm 69

the invisible (****) of the holy ghost
comes down like acid rain
they're making a bonnet of terminal guilt
the scavengers go on parade

the fathers who write that eternity
is used to fight the sword
have filled you up with the devil's cock
and he'll come in the name of the lord

the way to succeed and the way to suck eggs

It is not coincidence that the band chose Psalm 69. The exact title of the album is taken from Satanist, Aleister Crowley's THE BOOK OF LIES, chapter 69. Psalm 69: The Way To Succeed And To Suck Eggs is the title of chapter 69. Admittedly, there is an entry at Wikipedia showing that Aleister Crowley (1875-1947) was making reference to a sex act...

The title of the album is directly linked to chapter 69 of The Book of Lies, a written work of Aleister Crowley, where he uses the expression "The way to succeed and the way to suck eggs" as a pun for the 69 sex position ("suck seed" and "suck eggs").

SOURCE: Psalm 69: The Way to Succeed and the Way to Suck Eggs

The number 69 is a very popular sexual term which refers to a specific sex act. I can't show you the album cover because it is too graphic, but it features a naked women with wings. In the blasphemous song PSALM 69, MINISTRY sings the lyrics, “he wants you to suck on the holy ghost and swallow the sins of man.” The song is about performing oral sex on God. The God-haters go on to sing, “the invisible (****) of the holy ghost, comes down like acid rain.” MINISTRY has played in concert with THE GRATEFUL DEAD and BLACK SABBATH.

Aleister Crowley was a sexual degenerate, mass child-killer, homosexual, fiend, and enemy of mankind and God. Crowley was known for openly having sex with his wife in front of guests in their home, committing all despicable manner of homosexual sins, biting his lovers with fangs (he filed 2 of his teeth down into sharpened fangs), eating a woman's excrement during ritual sex, group orgies, and he boasted of being the self-proclaimed... WICKEDEST MAN IN THE WORLD. Even more shocking is that President George H. Bush is married to Aleister Crowley's daughter. Truth is truly stranger than fiction.

Crowley Hated God with a Passion

The following overview of Crowley’s life is from Hungry for Heaven by Steve Turner:
“Born in 1875, Aleister Crowley had, like the Rolling Stones, rebelled against a regulated small-town background. He’d been raised in Leamington, Warwickshire, by parents who were members of the Strict Brethren, a fundamentalist Christian sect. From an early age young Aleister identified with the enemies of God in the Bible stories that were read to him. In particular he identified with the antichrist predicted in the book of Revelation. In 1898 he joined the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, a magical society.

“Most of Crowley’s adult life was dedicated to indulging in everything he believed God would hate: performing sex magic, taking heroin, opium, hashish, peyote and cocaine, invoking spirits, and even once offering himself to the Russian authorities to help destroy Christianity. He wrote volumes of books that he believed were dictated to him by a spirit from ancient Egypt called Aiwass. “To worship me take wine and strange drugs,” the spirit conveniently told him. “Lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture. Fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.” …

“Crowley finished his life as a sick, wasted heroin addict given to black rages and doubts about the value of his life’s work. His last words as he passed into a coma on December 1, 1947, were, “I am perplexed…” (Steve Turner, Hungry for Heaven, pp. 92,97,98).
Aleister’s father Edward was a Brethren preacher, but he had inherited a fortune from his father who Crowley Ale. Edward died when Aleister was eleven and the son inherited the fortune. From this inheritance, Aleister financed his satanic career. He began torturing and killing animals at age twelve. Crowley was a heroin addict and a sexual pervert. His Christian mother referred to him as “The Great Beast of Revelation whose number is 666,” and he was pleased with the title. He was convinced that he was the reincarnation of the magician Eliphas Levi, who died the year Crowley was born. Crowley also believed he had lived other lives, including that of Pope Alexander VI. Crowley claimed that dark powers gave him the words to his “Book of the Law.” His first wife, Rose, died in a mental asylum. His second wife also went insane. “Five mistresses committed suicide, and scores of his concubines ended in the gutter as alcoholics, drug addicts, or in mental institutions” (Hellhounds on Their Trail, p. 56).

Crowley’s philosophy was as follows (which is the exact same philosophy of all Witches and Satanists today):
“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.”

“Lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture. Fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.”

“I do not wish to argue that the doctrines of Jesus, they and they alone, have degraded the world to its present condition. I take it that Christianity is not only the cause but the symptom of slavery” (Crowley, The World’s Tragedy, p. xxxix).

“That religion they call Christianity; the devil they honor they call God. I accept these definitions, as a poet must do, if he is to be at all intelligible to his age, and it is their God and their religion that I hate and will destroy” (Crowley, The World’s Tragedy, p. xxx).
Crowley studied Buddhism and Hindu yoga, following in the footsteps of Helena Blavatsky, and did much to popularize these in the West.

Crowley Died a Drug-addict and Sexual Degenerate

In 1922, Crowley published Diary of a Drug Fiend, which was about the use of cocaine. He described the widespread use of cocaine among Hollywood stars, which he described as “cocaine-crazed sexual lunatics.”
As noted, Crowley died a wasted heroin addict given to rages and doubts. His last words were “I am perplexed…” Crowley worshipped the demon god Pan, the god of sexuality and lust. His “Hymn to Pan” was read at his funeral: “I rave and I rape and I rip and I rend/ Everlasting world without end!”

Satanists are Still Abducting, Raping, and Killing Children
REPORTS ON GLOBAL GOVERNMENT CHILD ABUSE

There is an enormous amount of evidence to categorically prove to the genuine seeker of truth and justice, that the Secret Societies-run Intelligence Network are sexually abusing, and murdering children all around the world.

THE EVIDENCE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF

FRANKLIN COVER-UPS

DYNCORP DISGRACE

CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT'S PEDOPHILE RINGS AT GLASTONBURY FESTIVAL 2003

Aleister Crowley - Initiated to the highest levels of Freemasonry and high priest of the Golden Dawn, said: "A white male child of perfect innocence and intelligence makes the most suitable victim."

In the US each year 400,000 children are reported missing.
In the UK,98,000 children are reported missing.

Sexual Abuse and the Elite

“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” —Ephesians 5:11

“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” —2 Corinthians 6:14

L. Ron Hubbard (founder of Scientology) calls Crowley, "My very good friend.

But who was Barbara's father? The chronology indicates that it could have been Crowley, but it could just as easily have been Marvin Pierce. The truth regarding Crowlean sexual rituals is disclosed only to the highest initiates of the OTO, in a document misleadingly titled "Emblems and Modes of Use."

Is Aleister Crowley the father of Barbara Bush? Even she may not know for certain; indeed, I have no way of knowing whether she has ever been told that this possibility exists. However, more than one person has noted the resemblance -- and this resemblance is not just physical. Many will recall the former First Lady's haughty and thoughtless remarks in the aftermath of the Katrina disaster. Those "in the know" were reminded of Aleister Crowley's similar reaction to the loss of life which occurred during the ascent of Kangchanjunga, an expedition he commanded: "This is precisely the sort of thing with which I have no sympathy whatsoever.

The bottom line here is, your telling me that you support death, Satan, pedeophilea. Becouse weather you know the fact or not,the facts iv presented are truth.

And I can go on and on
And can not prove me wrong in any way. It's not possible bro

That about sums up what he had to say. I just gave his input. If anyone has anything, I'll be more than happy to add it to the conversation if I haven't already.
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby danica » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:22 am

"Argue not; convert not; talk not over much!"
"Write, & find ecstasy in writing! Work, & be our bed in working! Thrill with the joy of life & death! Ah! thy death shall be lovely: whoso seeth it shall be glad. Thy death shall be the seal of the promise of our age long love. Come! lift up thine heart & rejoice! We are one; we are none."
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Starry Soul » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:36 am

There's no point wasting time on people like that.
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby FraterTeth » Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:45 am

danica wrote:"Argue not; convert not; talk not over much!"

True, though we're not directly talking about Thelema. We're more talking about the historical Crowley.
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Hermitas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:14 am

Let it go.

"Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds."
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Luce » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:38 am

True, though we're not directly talking about Thelema. We're more talking about the historical Crowley.


This does not apply solely to discussing Thelema -- it's a maxim for life. The days are evil; prosecute the Great Work and choose wisely the people to whom you give your time. Some people are demons, whose sole function in your life is to drain you of this precious resource. "Behind me, Satan!" "Apo Pantos Kakodaimonos!'

Your time is more valuable than any other thing you possess. It's the Prima Materia of the alchemical Magnum Opus -- the only true substance that can be transmuted to gold.

"A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!"

(Quoted in part above): "to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!"
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Gnosomai Emauton » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:02 pm

Luce wrote:The days are evil

Are they? Really?

Some people are demons, whose sole function in your life is to drain you of this precious resource.

Are they? Really?

:?
Go in all ways contrary to the world.
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Luce » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:53 pm

Are they? Really?


Are you familiar with this reference/expression? If not, you are liable to misinterpret the quote if you try to take it literally. Although I think it's sufficiently evident that it's a poetic expression and not a literal statement.

Are they? Really?


And are you familiar with the reference connected to people being demons, i.e., behind me, Satan? Just means that the person, at that time, may be acting in such a way that is antithetical to your goals. It obviously says nothing of that person's true state or who they really are. See Crowley's comments to Frater Achad with regard to Fr. Achad's wife bothering him during his practices. She may be a star, a lover, a kindred spirit, but if she's nagging you to take out the trash during your pranayama, she's a demon in that moment and in that context and must be treated as such. Make sense?
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Gnosomai Emauton » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:57 pm

Luce wrote:Make sense?

Sure. It's a frame of reference through which you choose to view the world around you. The reason I call it out and attempt to bring attention to it is that, at core, it's not much more than a shorthand version of FratherTeth's interlocutor, fearing the power of the "other" over the self.

"Get Thee behind me Satan" is a crutch for those who believe that Satan (or "evil days"... or vampiric others... or one's wife) has a power over them.

"Apo Pantos Kakodaimonos" is for those who recognize that the Demons are just as much a part of themselves as are the Angels.

I think it's sufficiently evident that it's a poetic expression and not a literal statement.

Poetic expressions are usually the ones with the most power to mold our psyches in their form.
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Luce » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:38 pm

Get Thee behind me Satan" is a crutch for those who believe that Satan (or "evil days"... or vampiric others... or one's wife) has a power over them.

"Apo Pantos Kakodaimonos" is for those who recognize that the Demons are just as much a part of themselves as are the Angels.


I see what you're saying, but I wasn't at all positing ontology to Satan or demons. Those are all just expressions, not crutches. It's a declaration of power (which is, by definition, empowering), over the stimulus that is distracting you from the Great Work. If something has distracted you from your Will, it has already demonstrated power against you. The best thing to do is to dismiss it. This has nothing to do with Good and Evil -- that's just a picture. Here, evil, Satan, and demons serve merely as a metaphor for that which distracts you from the Great Work.

There's no point living in self-deception by denying that we waste time and let others express power over us. Better to save the time on both counts. Do you spend every minute of every day devoted entirely to the fulfillment of your True Will? If not, then "the days are evil" (remember, it's just an expression). Are you unswayed and undistracted by every earthly stimulus? If not, take heed, lest the swine "turn again and rend you." Answering "no" to either of the above questions means you have "demons" (remember, metaphor, not literal) with which is "exorcise" (still a metaphor).

Maybe I should avoid metaphors next time so I don't pull the topic off course :lol:
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Hermitas » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:36 am

Such Titan-like abilities...

But our minds are obviously bored if we're doing this. I keep getting called back to it, and it's a nothing - semantic rabbit hole explored by two of the same nature.

What's needed?
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Hermitas » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:40 am

Just how I think...
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Luce » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:25 am

It's a struggle for me, personally. Debating is very gratifying for me. Last year I decided to go a week without correcting people. If someone says something wrong, just to ignore it. It was SO HARD. It's just a natural thing for me to do.

If you have even a cursory knowledge of the world, and an attentive ear, the sheer amount of misinformation you hear each and every day is starting. But the question is WHY does it bug me so much? Why am I so wrapped up in argumentative impulses? Hearing someone say, "did you know we only use 10% of our brain?" makes me shiver. I MUST correct; I MUST educate.

I've gotten better with philosophical and religious things. I remember Crowley, in his commentary on Helena Blavatsky's work, The Voice of the Silence, writes:
It is infernally difficult to comment on such a Book. The principal reason for this is that every statement is true and untrue, alternately, as one advances upon the Path of the Wise. The question always arises: For what grade is this Book meant? To give one simple concrete example, it is stated in the third part of this treatise that Change is the great enemy.


We've already seen this in this thread, when I was challenged to explain what I meant by the days being evil. At one level, the days are evil. At another, they are good. At another, it's just an expression and makes no sense when applied literally. At another, the days transcend good and evil. At another, there are no days at all.

So, I can often admit philosophical variance. In one way, nihilism is true; in another, pantheism; in another, panentheism; in another, dualism; in other, positivism; in another, phenomenalism.

Jim once told me that he changed his metaphysics roughly once per grade. I'm starting to see how this can happen, and it makes discussion quite a motherfucker. If I say, like Blavatsky, change is the great enemy, someone will undoubtedly challenge me on it. But from what plane am I looking?

But what really gets me is when it's an issue of fact, not philosophy. If someone says that we use 10% of our brain, we KNOW what plane they're talking from. And they're wrong. And I must correct.
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby gerry456 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:14 pm

Daryl Hall?

Wow thanks, that's made my day, they were awesome.

As for Ministry, I totally love their early electro era.
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Hermitas » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:22 pm

I wasn't criticizing, really.

Just. I don't know. I'm bored too. Interaction-wise.

The Flow...
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Hermitas » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:51 am

I'm probably just sitting here counting my bones and being sad...

Reap, thou, and rejoice!
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby FraterTeth » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:02 pm

Thanks for the input. I find myself getting caught up into debate all too often. Really though, I didn't debate in this. I just asked for proof, and left it at that. He dropped it, I assume because he realized I am not going to get duped, and he had no actual proof on anything. Anyhow, 93et93.
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby oldfriend56 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:21 pm

FraterTeth wrote:Thanks for the input. I find myself getting caught up into debate all too often. Really though, I didn't debate in this. I just asked for proof, and left it at that. He dropped it, I assume because he realized I am not going to get duped, and he had no actual proof on anything. Anyhow, 93et93.


The only argument you could use I think is just that Crowley wanted people to believe he might be demonic or satanic as a method of a teaching technique. I forget the biographer, but one of them has a few letters Crowley wrote to students about the 'ordeal of the demon crowley' and in another biography there was a popular 'new age' type periodical whom had an editor who wrote virally about how evil Crowley was while privately writing to others that Crowley was the most interesting man alive and had a private relationship with Crowley. You could also point out Robert Anton Wilson's books about Crowley that spoke of this quite often, explaining how Crowley's technique was intentionally designed to freak everyone out so they could suspend true vs false and learn to navigate the delicate narrative in between.

If that doesn't work - then just tell them that everyone gets the Crowley they deserve, and your version of Crowley it's all a zen joke teaching method and that's the only version of Crowley you're interested in.

Best of luck :)
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Re: Argument on Thelema

Postby Hermitas » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:55 am

The guy you (OP) were talking to was just basically cutting and pasting from your run of the mill conspiracy website.

That's not a real discussion.

Waste of time.
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