Thelema and abortion.

[gerry456]

I know this is a big issue with the faiths of the world but I never contemplated how it fits in with Thelema. As a teenage Roman Catholic this debate had a massive significance for me/us.

Should she or should she not have an abortion? On one hand we of Thelema state that the woman has the right to do what her Neshamah is calling her to do but on the other hand is it her duty to God (i.e. Nuit-Hadit-Horus) to allow that little zygot-soul to fulfil it's next incarnation? Crowley said that woman is the Great Mother/the Great Whore and is therefore closer to her Will than men.

See the imagery of Thelemic Devil Trump,




Now I understand that this is also spiritual metaphor but here you have a phallic symbol complete with testicles which, of course contain many spermatozoa-souls waiting in purgatory to be incarnated for when the (condom-free) man will shoot his load down the vaginal canal of the fertilization/ continuity of Nu Herself.

Then again, maybe if the zygot-soul is deprived of incarnation by the abortion clinic then that was it's destiny also? Not this time around buddy! Maybe next time. I'm sure I heard that Crowley himself was an anti-abortionist thereby but I can't find any source evidence.

[Hermitas]

Well, I do think there is always that element of "It's all one great 'It is what it Is' machine." And you could probably sit pretty high with that for a time.

But my bottom line, for the individual in the heat of decision would be...

Hey. "Right." "Wrong." It's a decision that has a karma. Where are you with needing to make it?

Now, what kind of karma and why, I'm sure is debatable - and probably even individual to some degree.

But honestly, I just hate to think about it.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

Traditionally, the soul doesn't incarnate into the womb until the "quickening"--the point around the beginning of the second trimester when the fetus begins to move (and, at this time, exhibit early personality traits like being hyper or calm, etc). Most abortions happen much earlier.

So I don't personally see much issues of karma or destiny at play here.

Secondly, access to safe, legal abortion is a huge variable in creating equality between men and women. If we want every man and every woman to be a star, then it helps considerably if women can be in complete charge of their reproductive choices.

[gerry456]

I see. Great information there about transmigration.

[Hermitas]

Tradition + doubt + the psyche = ?

That's the gamble.

Do what thou wilt.

[Jim Eshelman]

Crowley was personally against abortion. Adamantly. But it helps to understand his reasons: Abortion (illegal and drenched in shame) was a horrible alternative to women pregnant out of wedlock. He saw it as Christianity's tool to keep women under sexual control instead of, say, just having a baby out of wedlock. (And probably to punish them, even mortally, to boot.)

Different social situation, different cultural context, different thinking, etc.

With most of that stigma removed, we have different questions to think about. My main points have already been said (or nearly so). Just as a Christian's belief system holds that each person has one life and the soul is damned because it didn't get to be born, baptized, and saved, and therefore will never get to heaven... I, who hold reincarnation to be, er, a fact of life come to an opposite conclusion: That it is far more compassionate to bounce someone out of a near-incarnation into their next best option with another couple, rather than bring them into a life of various kinds of hardship. (Among other arguments)

[FiatYod]

Traditionally, the soul doesn't incarnate into the womb until the "quickening"--the point around the beginning of the second trimester when the fetus begins to move (and, at this time, exhibit early personality traits like being hyper or calm, etc). Most abortions happen much earlier.

So I don't personally see much issues of karma or destiny at play here.

Secondly, access to safe, legal abortion is a huge variable in creating equality between men and women. If we want every man and every woman to be a star, then it helps considerably if women can be in complete charge of their reproductive choices.

I agree, as I've got to learn in a previous topic I started, where I asked (among other things) how a True Will is "created". Since the fetus needs both a Hadit, which requires some degree of consciousness, and Nuit coming to abide in their body, abortion is completely OK during the early stages of pregnancy.

[Barrackubus]

Abortion. To do or not to is not the question. When we may and should be asking why abortion? Abortion isn't the problem, Abortion is the symptom or an ill attempt to solve the core issue concerning women, and until this one issue is resolved then it will continue to be an area of great dispute for many. Oddly it could be said that also in the examination of this issue that the problem is also as to why many and other sexual freedoms and liberties may still yet be taboo or out of context with many.
Until the male species change their perception of sex and the getting of and not doing so in such a predatorial and practically forcing themselves upon unsuspecting partners and expecting sex when no indication of such is wanted or thought of then abortions would either cease or decline.
To put it as mildly as possible the reports accross the board and by countless women telling men that the attitude towards sex is unwanted and unacceptable, practically forcing themselves into it.
For years as a previous prolifer i was ignorant or this because i am one some that had never or will never approach a sex partner in that matter. And yes those men do exsist and since i have encountered some throughout the years and at some times even stopped such a person from sexual activity with a woman who based upon my rather close proximity and observation not even thinking of or consenting to sexual activity based upon at all what was being observed while at a party i was having.
Until men approach sex in a nonforceful way then abortions will continue to be a part of our world and certian sexual liberties and freedoms will never become apart of the world we live in today.

[gerry456]

Until the male species change their perception of sex and the getting of and not doing so in such a predatorial and practically forcing themselves upon unsuspecting partners and expecting sex when no indication of such is wanted or thought of then abortions would either cease or decline.
To put it as mildly as possible the reports accross the board and by countless women telling men that the attitude towards sex is unwanted and unacceptable, practically forcing themselves into it.
.

The how is not really involved in the OP. It's more of the now what? However what you're raising here is the issue of interfering with another's true will? The notion that most men are unbalanced sexual predators is a bit slanted isn't it?

[Barrackubus]

No i am not specifically saying that. I am however presentong some of the arguments implemented that brought about the implementation of the giving women the right to choose that for themselves.
and sadly those items discussed concerning men and the overwhelming amount of testimony from women from all walks of life the idea that men are garnered with that perception is shared by most women who support the decision to obtain abortion services.

It could be said that because of these prevailing arguements a woman is not legally nor financially responsible for being pregnant or deciding to obtain an abortion.

[xanderschild77]

...it is far more compassionate to bounce someone out of a near-incarnation into their next best option with another couple, rather than bring them into a life of various kinds of hardship. (Among other arguments)

This is what I have been saying for years! However, it isn't a popular opinion. But it's always made sense to me.

Thank you!

[Frater_Ultra_Nominis]

...it is far more compassionate to bounce someone out of a near-incarnation into their next best option with another couple, rather than bring them into a life of various kinds of hardship. (Among other arguments)

This is what I have been saying for years! However, it isn't a popular opinion. But it's always made sense to me.

Thank you!

I agree with Frater Eshelman

--- Frater Ultra Nominis

[oldfriend56]

as a male, I have been partnered a few times in my life where an abortion was an outcome. All times this happened, even though I was relieved personally on one level, I was absolutely wrecked spiritually for months, and I wasn't even the one going through the trauma.

So yes, I am against abortion in the sense I hope no woman or couple would ever have to go through such an ordeal.

I believe however this is a choice that a woman should always have, and i pray I never have to go through that with someone ever again.

I also hope people do not consult any holy book, regardless of the creed, as a way to determine if they should or should not choose such an event. Trying to find a moral compass in Thelema or anywhere for such a thing is not what i believe liber al was meant to do.