Thelema and abortion.

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Thelema and abortion.

Postby gerry456 » Sat May 21, 2016 3:34 am

I know this is a big issue with the faiths of the world but I never contemplated how it fits in with Thelema. As a teenage Roman Catholic this debate had a massive significance for me/us.

Should she or should she not have an abortion? On one hand we of Thelema state that the woman has the right to do what her Neshamah is calling her to do but on the other hand is it her duty to God (i.e. Nuit-Hadit-Horus) to allow that little zygot-soul to fulfil it's next incarnation? Crowley said that woman is the Great Mother/the Great Whore and is therefore closer to her Will than men.

See the imagery of Thelemic Devil Trump,

Image


Now I understand that this is also spiritual metaphor but here you have a phallic symbol complete with testicles which, of course contain many spermatozoa-souls waiting in purgatory to be incarnated for when the (condom-free) man will shoot his load down the vaginal canal of the fertilization/ continuity of Nu Herself.

Then again, maybe if the zygot-soul is deprived of incarnation by the abortion clinic then that was it's destiny also? Not this time around buddy! Maybe next time. I'm sure I heard that Crowley himself was an anti-abortionist thereby but I can't find any source evidence.
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: Thelema and abortion.

Postby Hermitas » Sun May 22, 2016 6:50 pm

Well, I do think there is always that element of "It's all one great 'It is what it Is' machine." And you could probably sit pretty high with that for a time.

But my bottom line, for the individual in the heat of decision would be...

Hey. "Right." "Wrong." It's a decision that has a karma. Where are you with needing to make it?

Now, what kind of karma and why, I'm sure is debatable - and probably even individual to some degree.

But honestly, I just hate to think about it.
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Re: Thelema and abortion.

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Mon May 23, 2016 8:12 am

Traditionally, the soul doesn't incarnate into the womb until the "quickening"--the point around the beginning of the second trimester when the fetus begins to move (and, at this time, exhibit early personality traits like being hyper or calm, etc). Most abortions happen much earlier.

So I don't personally see much issues of karma or destiny at play here.

Secondly, access to safe, legal abortion is a huge variable in creating equality between men and women. If we want every man and every woman to be a star, then it helps considerably if women can be in complete charge of their reproductive choices.
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Re: Thelema and abortion.

Postby gerry456 » Tue May 24, 2016 2:01 am

I see. Great information there about transmigration. :)
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: Thelema and abortion.

Postby Hermitas » Tue May 24, 2016 3:39 am

Tradition + doubt + the psyche = ?

That's the gamble.

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Re: Thelema and abortion.

Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu May 26, 2016 4:47 pm

Crowley was personally against abortion. Adamantly. But it helps to understand his reasons: Abortion (illegal and drenched in shame) was a horrible alternative to women pregnant out of wedlock. He saw it as Christianity's tool to keep women under sexual control instead of, say, just having a baby out of wedlock. (And probably to punish them, even mortally, to boot.)

Different social situation, different cultural context, different thinking, etc.

With most of that stigma removed, we have different questions to think about. My main points have already been said (or nearly so). Just as a Christian's belief system holds that each person has one life and the soul is damned because it didn't get to be born, baptized, and saved, and therefore will never get to heaven... I, who hold reincarnation to be, er, a fact of life come to an opposite conclusion: That it is far more compassionate to bounce someone out of a near-incarnation into their next best option with another couple, rather than bring them into a life of various kinds of hardship. (Among other arguments)
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Re: Thelema and abortion.

Postby FiatYod » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:05 am

Avshalom Binyamin wrote:Traditionally, the soul doesn't incarnate into the womb until the "quickening"--the point around the beginning of the second trimester when the fetus begins to move (and, at this time, exhibit early personality traits like being hyper or calm, etc). Most abortions happen much earlier.

So I don't personally see much issues of karma or destiny at play here.

Secondly, access to safe, legal abortion is a huge variable in creating equality between men and women. If we want every man and every woman to be a star, then it helps considerably if women can be in complete charge of their reproductive choices.

I agree, as I've got to learn in a previous topic I started, where I asked (among other things) how a True Will is "created". Since the fetus needs both a Hadit, which requires some degree of consciousness, and Nuit coming to abide in their body, abortion is completely OK during the early stages of pregnancy.
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Re: Thelema and abortion.

Postby Barrackubus » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:27 am

Abortion. To do or not to is not the question. When we may and should be asking why abortion? Abortion isn't the problem, Abortion is the symptom or an ill attempt to solve the core issue concerning women, and until this one issue is resolved then it will continue to be an area of great dispute for many. Oddly it could be said that also in the examination of this issue that the problem is also as to why many and other sexual freedoms and liberties may still yet be taboo or out of context with many.
Until the male species change their perception of sex and the getting of and not doing so in such a predatorial and practically forcing themselves upon unsuspecting partners and expecting sex when no indication of such is wanted or thought of then abortions would either cease or decline.
To put it as mildly as possible the reports accross the board and by countless women telling men that the attitude towards sex is unwanted and unacceptable, practically forcing themselves into it.
For years as a previous prolifer i was ignorant or this because i am one some that had never or will never approach a sex partner in that matter. And yes those men do exsist and since i have encountered some throughout the years and at some times even stopped such a person from sexual activity with a woman who based upon my rather close proximity and observation not even thinking of or consenting to sexual activity based upon at all what was being observed while at a party i was having.
Until men approach sex in a nonforceful way then abortions will continue to be a part of our world and certian sexual liberties and freedoms will never become apart of the world we live in today.
It should never be forgotten for a single moment that the central and essential work of the Magician is the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. Once he has achieved this he must of course be left entirely in the hands of that Angel, who can be invariably and inevitably relied upon to lead him to the further great step—crossing of the Abyss and the attainment of the grade of Master of the Temple. (Magick Without Tears, Ch.83)

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Re: Thelema and abortion.

Postby gerry456 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:44 pm

Barrackubus wrote:Until the male species change their perception of sex and the getting of and not doing so in such a predatorial and practically forcing themselves upon unsuspecting partners and expecting sex when no indication of such is wanted or thought of then abortions would either cease or decline.
To put it as mildly as possible the reports accross the board and by countless women telling men that the attitude towards sex is unwanted and unacceptable, practically forcing themselves into it.
.


The how is not really involved in the OP. It's more of the now what? However what you're raising here is the issue of interfering with another's true will? The notion that most men are unbalanced sexual predators is a bit slanted isn't it?
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: Thelema and abortion.

Postby Barrackubus » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:59 am

No i am not specifically saying that. I am however presentong some of the arguments implemented that brought about the implementation of the giving women the right to choose that for themselves.
and sadly those items discussed concerning men and the overwhelming amount of testimony from women from all walks of life the idea that men are garnered with that perception is shared by most women who support the decision to obtain abortion services.

It could be said that because of these prevailing arguements a woman is not legally nor financially responsible for being pregnant or deciding to obtain an abortion.
It should never be forgotten for a single moment that the central and essential work of the Magician is the attainment of the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. Once he has achieved this he must of course be left entirely in the hands of that Angel, who can be invariably and inevitably relied upon to lead him to the further great step—crossing of the Abyss and the attainment of the grade of Master of the Temple. (Magick Without Tears, Ch.83)

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