Mongol and Din

[Lykathea]

IMO, were governments.

Two of the biggest governments on the earth in 1904, both to fall in a couple of years, were Manchu (upper classes intermarried with Mongols, though culturally distinct) - dominated China, which ruled East and Central Asia, and the Ottoman Empire that ruled West Asia, North Africa and Southeast Europe. Neither of them were that 'evil in the scheme of things (well, neither is the litany of faiths...), but they were going to fall respectively in 1911 and 1922. 11 years apart. Crazy.

Din is an interesting term, and I equated it to the Ottoman Empire. Din is a word in Arabic similar to the concept of Tao. The top leadership / Din of the Islamic kind was the Ottoman empire. The Ottomans followed Din quite a bit, but Din was not enough to keep them in power.

Eventually, Crowley's homeland stepped into the lives of both the 'Mongol' and 'Din' nations. Old Ra-Hoor-Khuit only said what he could see in the future, and the ultimate seed of change within these explosive geopolitical conflicts.

What do you folks think, and what do you think this says about the "Mongol and Din" empires of today - our modern-day superpowers / NATO and the like?

[Takamba]

I'd rather tell you what Crowley thought and we might go from there:

"the Indian": The religion of Hindustan, metaphysically and mystically comprehensive enough to assure itself the possession of much truth, is in practice almost as superstitious and false as Christianity, a faith of slaves, liars and dastards. The same remarks apply roughly to Buddhism.

"Mongol": presumably the reference is to Confucianism, whose metaphysical and ethical flawlessness has not saved its adherents from losing those ruder virtues which are proper to a Fighting Animal, and thus yielding at last a civilization coeval with history itself to the barbarous tribes of Europe.

"Din" - "severity" or "judgment" - may refer to the Jewish Law, rather than the Faith (al-din) of Islam. Assuming this, the six religions whose flesh must be torn out cover the whole globe outside Islam and Christianity.

Why assault their flesh rather than their eyes, as in the other cases? Because the metaphysics, or point of view, is correct - I take Judaism as Qabalistic - but the practice imperfect.

As you can see, Crowley posits that the names used in III:53 are names of religions or "metaphysical" rules - not the arbitrary dividing lines of man's use of land contracts.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

I think you're taking the phrase "Mongol and Din" out of context. If you put it in context, and assume that what you think "Mongol and Din" means prophetically applies equally to at least the whole verse, then I would assume something similar must happen with the "Indian and Buddhist".

But, honestly, I'm not much for prophetic political, externalized interpretations of the Book of the Law. It might have some value, but growing up in a prophecy-obsessed Christian doomsday cult, I can see what can easily happen.

Besides, I look at the whole passage, and it really appears to be about getting rid of old belief systems (to me):

49. I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men.

50. Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!

51. With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.

52. I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.

53. With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.

54. Bahlasti! Ompehda! I spit on your crapulous creeds.

[gmugmble]

Mongol and Din as empires is an interesting idea, worth thinking about. FWIW, Karen Armstrong (The Case for God) says the Arabic word "din" means religion or way of life, which is similar to "Tao".

[Lykathea]

Thanks for posting that, Takamba.

Crowley's explanation was sort of what I'm critiquing - from my personal understanding, the terms Mongol and Din do not seem to refer to Confucianism and Judaism. Mongols were hostile to things Chinese, and I've only really heard Din used in an Islamic naming context (muhajidin, Saladin, Nasruddin..). In Judaism, I've only heard Beit Din. Of course, we should all have our own views on Liber AL, based on our own awareness.

Binyamin, if we go with my idea, definitely India and Buddhist nations were affected by much warfare and colonialism in the early 20th century as well. But you are quite right that it is about getting rid of old things. (Also, I guess, harmonizing them because there are 6 of them, after all.) I like to pick things apart, though, since it is fun.

[Avshalom Binyamin]

In Judaism, I've only heard Beit Din.

It's also an alternate name for the Sephirah, Gevurah.

[Jim Eshelman]

In Judaism, I've only heard Beit Din.

It's also an alternate name for the Sephirah, Gevurah.

The two are the same: Din (Diyn) means "justice," and is the highest of the three names of Geburah. The Beyt Diyn is, literally, "house of justice."

[Avshalom Binyamin]

Right, thanks.

He obviously knew the Islamic use of the word Din, but went with Judaism for this one, since Mohammed had already been mentioned in a prior verse.

It seems to me that he's implying that Din--judgment--could refer to the legalistic approach of rabbinical Judaism.

[Lykathea]

Of course, we all use various interpretations - but since Indian and Mongol are not religions, I often had my doubts about the Din = Judaism concept. After all, it was Aiwass who wrote Liber AL

[Takamba]

Of course, we all use various interpretations - but since Indian and Mongol are not religions, I often had my doubts about the Din = Judaism concept. After all, it was Aiwass who wrote Liber AL

Nothing major but it was Nuit, Hadit, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit who "wrote" the book, it was Aiwass who spoke it in English for Crowley's ears.

As to the idea of having infinite interpretations; I don't buy that. "If a word can meaning anything you want, it means nothing at all." - my 9th grade English teacher. There's a difference between the word "meaning" and the word "meaning." Choose ye well.

Meaning = definition?
Meaning = value?

Let the book mean to you what it needs to mean to you. As I have learned reading Crowley, don't let yourself get stuck on a meaning as the meanings will change in time.

[Angel of Death]

As to the idea of having infinite interpretations; I don't buy that. "If a word can meaning anything you want, it means nothing at all." - my 9th grade English teacher. There's a difference between the word "meaning" and the word "meaning." Choose ye well.

Meaning = definition?
Meaning = value?

Let the book mean to you what it needs to mean to you. As I have learned reading Crowley, don't let yourself get stuck on a meaning as the meanings will change in time.

Not to get OT,

Thank you for sharing that.
My nine year old daughter has been asking a lot of big questions this week, and hit me up with the classic What is the meaning of life .

I struggled to find the words to share with her that what my life means to me, is going to be different then what her life means to her, but that over all life itself has it's own value.

[Jim Eshelman]

My nine year old daughter has been asking a lot of big questions this week, and hit me up with the classic What is the meaning of life .

It's a Monty Python film, right?

[Angel of Death]

My nine year old daughter has been asking a lot of big questions this week, and hit me up with the classic What is the meaning of life .

It's a Monty Python film, right?

Too funny,
Giggling MAO because that is exactly the movie I played that night for Telly time!
I taught my parrot the chorus for Brightside of Life.
I love those guys...

[Uni_Verse]

...Aiwass who spoke it in English for Crowley's ears

Aiwass sang it (in the language of the birds), VVVVV recieved it, Perdeburo translated it, Crowley wrote it.