4=7's likes and dislikes...

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4=7's likes and dislikes...

Postby Hermes » Thu May 01, 2014 1:30 pm

I'm wondering how it tend to be experienced and manifested in initiates life, and i'd like to hear further precisions, for instance to understand the differences with practicus and dominus liminis on this precise subject.

From what i understand currently, mahasatipatana, devotion, and consecration(and most other practices) makes one clearly able to control the likes and dislikes. Though, a practicus(and even before probably) should be "not bad"(to say the least) at that already... Controling one's vaciliations is rather related and so are the various ordeals already passed and skills already mastered before.

A further current understanding is it may have to do whith the ratio yetziratic/briatic involved. For instance, the practicus may control totally his likes and dislikes on a yetziratic level and partially on a briatic one, whereas the philosophus extends that skill further on a briatic level, attaining almost full mastery.

An example of that could be a practicus can control that in a similar way philosophus does mastering mahasatipatana, though he uses more "force" to do it, whereas philosophus dont even think about it. Practicus may use more "aura skills" whereas philosophus dont let at all things even touch his aura in the first place, he sees things one step in advance before they get even close, that is, on briatic level, and thus is totaly delivered not only from "astral vaciliation" but also from briatic one. He sees things in the bigger picture in advance. The dominus liminis may do the same always, instead of most of the time.

He(philosophus) may see things interelated on regular basis without even thinking about it, his intuition gets closer and closer to adept's one, thus preparing him to actually focus on that(intuition) as a dominus liminis, until full mastery of it confers(among other things) adepthood. Thus, there are no "ethic" considerations at all anymore(as philosophus), he got well beyond contrary to practicus, and just "does his job" so to speak.

If we compare the relationships there is between practicus/philosophus and philosophus/dominus liminis, one thing could be that in a similar way practicus "cleans up" yetziratic forces and is consecrated as a philsophus, philosophus cleans up briatic ones and is consacrated as a dominus liminis on a higher plane(especially as he masters now rising on the planes). A similar thing could be said concerning global equilibration probably.

Though, to some extent this is already true if we compare neophytus and zelator work. Of course respective tests and requirements for each grade leaves no doubt concerning the differences on a global level, but what i'm asking for is the specific likes/dislikes thing. So dont hesitate to use any perspective, example, anything you will to make your point. Any "leverage" could help and the more the better to "circle" closer around the truth...

Could you please comment my current understanding and share yours?
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Re: 4=7's likes and dislikes...4=7 work on

Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu May 01, 2014 4:00 pm

I think you're trying to pin this down far too much. The "universal" in the system are the tasks assigned and their tests. Years, there are commonalities across initiates, but there are also (and especially) wide differences. One does not, for example, assess whether one is such-and-so a grade by whether one is having similar feelings and experiences to other people in the grade, but by whether one has completed assigned tasks in a particular sequence and passed examination in them. Most of what you are asking about (in contrast) is the stuff that varies widely from person to person.

Frater Horus wrote:I'm wondering how it tend to be experienced and manifested in initiates life

What is "it". (That seems basic to your inquiry.)

Is it what you name in your title - "likes and dislikes"? If so, are you perhaps confusing this with the 4=7 work on attractions and repulsions? (It isn't the same thing.)

i'd like to hear further precisions, for instance to understand the differences with practicus and dominus liminis on this precise subject.

What precise subject? (If the above, then the Practices and Dom Lim have nothing per se to do with the issue.)

From what i understand currently, mahasatipatana, devotion, and consecration(and most other practices) makes one clearly able to control the likes and dislikes.
No. They don't exist exactly for that reason (though they might indeed assist a particular person: What an individual needs is a unique conversation between him or her and the Superior). - And, again, it isn't "likes and dislikes," it's attractions & repulsions.

Though, a practicus(and even before probably) should be "not bad"(to say the least) at that already... Controling one's vaciliations is rather related and so are the various ordeals already passed and skills already mastered before.

Agreed that there is some relationship... except that one has to do with the fluctuations of the intellect, and the other with the fluctuations of desire and the underlying "magnetization" (to use the old term) to circumstances.

A further current understanding is it may have to do whith the ratio yetziratic/briatic involved. For instance, the practicus may control totally his likes and dislikes on a yetziratic level and partially on a briatic one, whereas the philosophus extends that skill further on a briatic level, attaining almost full mastery.

The "ratio" of the worlds is about the same in the two grades. (To the extent that there are differences, they are also diverse across individuals.) Both grades abide in Yetzirah foir the most part, and are undertaking practices intended, in time, to open them to Briyah. - The real difference here is the difference between the intellect and desire.

Practicus may use more "aura skills" whereas philosophus dont let at all things even touch his aura in the first place, he sees things one step in advance before they get even close, that is, on briatic level, and thus is totaly delivered not only from "astral vaciliation" but also from briatic one. He sees things in the bigger picture in advance. The dominus liminis may do the same always, instead of most of the time.

None of this, per se, is in the A.'.A.'.. You seem to have made it all up, or perhaps observed something in one particular person (yourself? another?). - Just to take one extreme example, the idea of "delivery from Briatic fluctuation" shows you totally missing the most basic understanding of Briah. (Fluctuations, vascillations, etc. are specific characteristics of Yetzirah.)

Though, to some extent this is already true if we compare neophytus and zelator work. Of course respective tests and requirements for each grade leaves no doubt concerning the differences on a global level, but what i'm asking for is the specific likes/dislikes thing.

And I repeat: That isn't part of the grade per se. You got the words wrong, and therefore the concepts wrong.
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Re: 4=7's likes and dislikes...

Postby Hermes » Sat May 03, 2014 6:07 am

Thanks !

Jim Eshelman wrote:Is it what you name in your title - "likes and dislikes"? If so, are you perhaps confusing this with the 4=7 work on attractions and repulsions? (It isn't the same thing.)

Maybe yes ! I dont think so but i dont assume i understand neither. I know it's called "attractions and repulsions" and that it is different. Though the whole "thing"(my question) is about the interaction(maybe it is clearer that way) between:

.likes and dislikes
.attractions and repulsions
.desire and aspirations

It seems as one advances, this interaction changes and perhaps all three couples(which from my understanding their biggest difference is the "ratio" assiah/yetzirah/briah involved in each one)tend to merge, as everything aligns to the true will on all planes. I was trying to ask precisions about that kind of interaction and thought using the same word "likes and dislikes" emphasised what i was trying to point out.

Though, a practicus(and even before probably) should be "not bad"(to say the least) at that already... Controling one's vaciliations is rather related and so are the various ordeals already passed and skills already mastered before.

Jim Eshelman wrote:Agreed that there is some relationship... except that one has to do with the fluctuations of the intellect, and the other with the fluctuations of desire and the underlying "magnetization" (to use the old term) to circumstances.

Could you please say more about the "fluctuations of desire and the underlying "magnetization" to circumstances"? Maybe define "magnetization"? Again isnt something already mastered to a great degree before dominus(magnetization)? As the philosophus can evoke into visible appearances and charge talismans for instance, isnt that a proof of magnetization mastery? Maybe Dominus tends to control that on an "automatic level" 24/24? And to what extent the philosophus tend to fair at "controling the aspirations of ones being"?

I know it's not a part of the syllabus or testing of AA but what i'm asking for is personal understanding and hypothesis. As Hermes said "everything is in the all and the all is in everything". So the question is how a single thing tends to be percieved from different points of vue. As everything is still there even when one doesnt focus on it.

Practicus may use more "aura skills" whereas philosophus dont let at all things even touch his aura in the first place, he sees things one step in advance before they get even close, that is, on briatic level, and thus is totaly delivered not only from "astral vaciliation" but also from briatic one. He sees things in the bigger picture in advance. The dominus liminis may do the same always, instead of most of the time.

Jim Eshelman wrote:None of this, per se, is in the A.'.A.'.. You seem to have made it all up, or perhaps observed something in one particular person (yourself? another?). - Just to take one extreme example, the idea of "delivery from Briatic fluctuation" shows you totally missing the most basic understanding of Briah. (Fluctuations, vascillations, etc. are specific characteristics of Yetzirah.)

Again i was not clear sorry. By "delivery from briatic fluctuations" i mean not "briatic fluctuation"per se but "(yetziratic)fluctuations that are most related to briatic stimuli" if that makes any sense. I could call it also "fluctuations that are induced mostly by ones yetziratic reaction to briatic/tiphareth forces" if you will. To emphasize the difference, say, with fluctuations of the intellect, or of the passions(hod and netzach related even if they "hit"/manifest through/in malkuth/yesod).
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Re: 4=7's likes and dislikes...

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat May 03, 2014 9:07 am

Frater Horus wrote:Maybe yes ! I dont think so but i dont assume i understand neither. I know it's called "attractions and repulsions" and that it is different. Though the whole "thing"(my question) is about the interaction(maybe it is clearer that way) between:

.likes and dislikes
.attractions and repulsions
.desire and aspirations

As I think about this, this morning, I notice something quite interesting in the way you posed the question. You have actually picked things that sound similar, but come from quite distinctive parts of the psyche.

Desire arises from Nefesh - the "automatic consciousness," instinctual part of what is broadly called unconscious. It is biologically rooted.

Likes and dislikes arise from Ruach - ego-consciousness. They amount to labels and decisions. What we do about our likes and dislikes will be motivated by other parts of the psyche (most often Nefesh contents), but the likes/dislikes themselves are simply decisions. (I still have very pronounced likes and dislikes. Sometimes I act in response to them, sometimes I don't. Mostly, that's just called "maturity," but that (maturity) is primarily Ruach maturation.

Aspiration arises from N'shamah, superconsciousness. It is the "desire" component of the "spiritual unconscious," paralleling desire itself in Nefesh. It's also important to understand that aspiration is not "something the seeker brings" - it doesn't arise from within the personality - it's something received from without, "above."

Attractions and repulsions - I'm not going to say anything about. The A.'.A.'. structure is quite specific that one layer of the work involves the Philosophus struggling with these and specifically in consultation with his or her Superior. This is highly individual, and I don't want to put anything in writing that could be taken as meaning, "This is what's so about attractions and repulsions." I'll discuss this with a Philosophus working directly under me; anything else runs the risk of upsetting what's supposed to happen with that task.

It seems as one advances, this interaction changes and perhaps all three couples(which from my understanding their biggest difference is the "ratio" assiah/yetzirah/briah involved in each one)tend to merge

Stated like this, I started to disagree; and then I realized that maybe you are confusing Assiah, Yetzirah, and Briah with Nefesh, Ruach, and N'shamah. If what I wrote above makes since, then forget the four Worlds on this one and like at the triune structure of the human psyche. (They sometimes have similar metaphors, but they shouldn't be confused. The parts of the psyche are not constrained to a single World but, in the course of the Path, they tend to free from one and open to one above it.)

Could you please say more about the "fluctuations of desire and the underlying "magnetization" to circumstances"?

No, not in a forum. (Not much anyway.) "Magnetization" is an old term, archaic in most senses, but useful in the exact way I used it. This is a guru-chela conversation, not a matter of public definition.

Again isnt something already mastered to a great degree before dominus (magnetization)? As the philosophus can evoke into visible appearances and charge talismans for instance, isnt that a proof of magnetization mastery? Maybe Dominus tends to control that on an "automatic level" 24/24?

Everybody controls it on an automatic level. (Good choice of words: It's part of the automatic consciousness that does this.) - That's a big part of why we witness and seek to consciously control it, because we're controlling it automatically all the time.
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Re: 4=7's likes and dislikes...

Postby Vadox » Sat May 03, 2014 9:47 am

I would advice to do liber resh to get the feeling of the tasks of each grade.
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Re: 4=7's likes and dislikes...

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat May 03, 2014 10:10 am

Vadox wrote:I would advice to do liber resh to get the feeling of the tasks of each grade.

How so? Explain your point of view, please.
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Re: 4=7's likes and dislikes...

Postby Hermes » Sun May 04, 2014 9:51 am

Awesome Jim, thanks !

I will look into what you suggested and ask in "real life" an adept for the "discreet" part if i'm still having trouble getting it.

I have a lot of work to do now :lol:
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Re: 4=7's likes and dislikes...

Postby Hermes » Sun May 04, 2014 10:22 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Vadox wrote:I would advice to do liber resh to get the feeling of the tasks of each grade.

How so? Explain your point of view, please.


I'd like to hear that too !

Intuitively i'd rather say Liber Legis currently.

0. Nuit
1. Hadit
2. RHK
3.Nuit
4. Hadit
DL.RHK
A.within. Nuit
6. Hadit
7. RHK
...

Like each grade can correspond with the natural following of chapters, and each round they get "upgraded"in different ways

Sometimes i ask myself "if i had to chose only one book for the rest of my life, what would it be?".

So far i got 5 answers:

4years ago: the kybalion
3years ago: Cicero's "self initiation..."
2years ago: Eshelman's "The mystical..."
1year ago: Crowley's tarot deck
Currently: Liber Legis :bat:

And if i had to chose only one chapter of Liber Legis i'd chose the first one !
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