Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

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Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Starry Soul » Tue May 05, 2015 5:19 am

What the title says.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue May 05, 2015 5:34 am

Yes. Yes.

They're only Masters.

PS - Practices in other systems that would bring one to the threshold of choosing whether or not to reincarnate are consistent, in A.'.A.'. terms, with the attaining Ipsissimus. That's not the only characteristic of that part of the Path (and not directly even a basic part of it); but that's the stage parallel the same choice-attainment in other traditions.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Starry Soul » Tue May 05, 2015 5:59 am

For the longest time I had this idea of the Exempt Adept as being at that threshold. It had never occured to me to just ask. :lol: Thanks!
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue May 05, 2015 6:17 am

Starry Soul wrote:For the longest time I had this idea of the Exempt Adept as being at that threshold. It had never occured to me to just ask. :lol: Thanks!

I think a lot of people tend to think of the "annihilation" of "crossing the Abyss" as the full dissolution of a being - as if it were the culmination of the Eight High Trances. In fact, it's more like the beginning of the Eight High Trances. It's a disentangling of the jumbled threads of "tendencies" to dissipate the illusion of any sense of self and life that existed before, the release of ego identification with any Ruach, Nefesh, or physical (Goof) aspects and the projection structures attached to them... etc. etc. etc.... yet there is still a star in the motion of Will and the condition of Love.

Generally this is expressed as the cessation of all that one is, and I think this is completely true in any sense people would understand that language. One certainly has to be willing for it to be true to navigate the experience.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Starry Soul » Tue May 05, 2015 6:22 am

Yeah. "Too big, too far away; it must be the end."
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Starry Soul » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:32 am

Trivia question: So the reincarnated 8=3 can't become a Black Brother, can he?
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Frater INRI » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:34 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:I think a lot of people tend to think of the "annihilation" of "crossing the Abyss" as the full dissolution of a being - as if it were the culmination of the Eight High Trances. In fact, it's more like the beginning of the Eight High Trances. It's a disentangling of the jumbled threads of "tendencies" to dissipate the illusion of any sense of self and life that existed before, the release of ego identification with any Ruach, Nefesh, or physical (Goof) aspects and the projection structures attached to them... etc. etc. etc.... yet there is still a star in the motion of Will and the condition of Love.

Generally this is expressed as the cessation of all that one is, and I think this is completely true in any sense people would understand that language. One certainly has to be willing for it to be true to navigate the experience.

Well said, Jim.

Well, according to the Four stages of enlightenment (which begins after the passing of the Abyss and entails 8 level trances) as per Theravada tradition, at Anagami level attainment there is no return to this material level and the 4th level, Arahat, there is complete freedom.

Anagami level is maybe 9=2 and Arahat 10=1, if it is even possible to compare these two maps of initiation/attainment.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Frater INRI » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:37 am

Starry Soul wrote:Trivia question: So the reincarnated 8=3 can't become a Black Brother, can he?

Once 8=3 has been really attained, there is no need to revisit previous stages of development.

:)

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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:48 am

Frater INRI wrote:Once 8=3 has been really attained, there is no need to revisit previous stages of development.

Every incarnation, no matter what level one has previously attained, one starts all over. "Revisiting previous stages" is exactly what one does. (However, the steps go faster, since it's a recap.)

Remember, there are a new body, a new Nefesh, and a new Rooach to train.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Frater INRI » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:42 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:Every incarnation, no matter what level one has previously attained, one starts all over. "Revisiting previous stages" is exactly what one does. (However, the steps go faster, since it's a recap.)

Remember, there are a new body, a new Nefesh, and a new Rooach to train.


Yeah yeah.

And one doesnt stop there, for s/he already knows higher taste.

93 93/93
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Starry Soul » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:03 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:Practices in other systems that would bring one to the threshold of choosing whether or not to reincarnate are consistent, in A.'.A.'. terms, with the attaining Ipsissimus. That's not the only characteristic of that part of the Path (and not directly even a basic part of it); but that's the stage parallel the same choice-attainment in other traditions.

Does that mean that the one who attains Ipsissimus has invariably chosen not to reincarnate? (That's how I'd read it.) So one who chooses to stay behind (bodhisattva?) remains at the previous stage of development?
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:17 pm

No. One doesn't necessarily major that decision before attaining the grade.

Or, so the theory would go. It's not like we have dozens of examples with detailed records.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby brotherjj » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:01 pm

According to Bill Hamilton (a semi-famous Vipassana meditator and teacher), the arahat Taungpulu Sayadaw chose to reincarnate and take the Bodhisattva bow, this was on the whim of his teacher, who wanted one of his students to reach arahatship and teach Vipassana, and his other student to take the Bodhisattva vow.

The former was Mahasi Sayadaw, the latter was Taungpulu Sayadaw.

The issue of masters reincarnating who have seemingly ended rebirth is dealt with in the Mahayana and Vajrayana vehicles or branches of Buddhism, it appears to be somewhat of a paradox, or "learning what you already know", so there's no real need to rehash it. (What happens is a snag is hit, and so the computer pauses, and delves deeper and deeper (what are these called? successive, delved, nested loops? iterations or stacks or whatever, check out recursive functions), into what it already knows, thus it appears like things are "happening", but time-space is really frozen, it hasn't moved in forever, and is hinged on some problem which it is unable to solve)

Even then, the Zen master Hakuin Ekaku, stated that the ultimateness of Awakening was none other than being a bodhisattva and teaching others!

This phenomenon is often demonstrated with individuals who purposely strip themselves of all attainments and enter the void again, to do it all over again. I think Christ is a good example of this (someone who emptied himself of Godhead, and made the journey all over again).

You might check out the Tulku phenomenon, and the seeming presence of already enlightened individuals, who merely recapitulate the journey, see: Adi Da Samraj.

I have a friend like this, he's somewhat mysterious to me

The other issue of an 8=3 backsliding into "black brotherhood" is a non-issue, because it assumes permanence, or a linear version of time (past, present, future), etc

Any attainment is not "permanent", because it has not happened yet, and so what seems like an "awakening" or "attainment", happening at some point in space-time, is really not that, but something that has already happened, intimating itself through an appearance of causality (it happening)

Thus there is no permanence "up there", nothing is sticky, and in the 4D space, anything can be rearranged, "down here" it appears like things are being lost

(the 4D space is a space where time-space is "frozen", and so things don't really happen, rather they are moved around, but down here it appears like things are happening, or are lost, maybe they are just being sorted)

But it has already happened

Think about how a pen looks if you shove it through a 2D plane, it looks like it's changing, yet to us the pen is unchanging, it is just one pen, it's being shoved through a plane

Similarly in the 4D space, "where everything that can happen, has happened", time-space is "frozen", yet this "already happened" (immanent, and absolute event, hence the subitism argument) intimates itself through a seed-effect causality-like happening, as if things are happening, or that there is a genesis

This is an illusion

So when an arahat reincarnates, he is not losing anything, because he has never had anything, all the pieces of the puzzle are still up there, but are being sorted in some realm wherein we cannot tell why they are there, so "the subjective appearance", may be that the arahat regains his enlightenment

Who knows though

93,

~JJ

Edit:

In 4D space-time things that "happened" in the past can be changed, so while it appears like there is "permanence" or that things can be lost, in reality the pieces are still there, but taken out of our awareness, and being rearranged

It's slightly creepy

So everything there is "frozen", or remains there, but we may not be aware of all those things

It's more of a space where there are a finite amount of pieces that can be changed and rearranged around, but to us it appears like things are "happening" or being reversed (the past being changed), etc

There is no "out there" (somewhat of a separate idea, relating to Advaita Vedanta)

Edit 2:

In other words, what has been gained, apparently, through time, can in fact be lost, because in the 4D space, it is not time (and thus, certainty, or, the past), but in fact a space, wherein things can be rearranged, so the past is not sealed, and nothing, happens

Edit 3:

Time gives the illusion that the past is immutable or sealed, but in a space, things can be rearranged, nevertheless it appears, to "happen through" time, and time is the medium of the intimation of the frozen object, which knows no time, and already is the case, we're merely getting glimpses of it

I guess that's why some people say time is cyclical
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Hermes » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:15 am

Thanks for your contribution Brotherjj, very interesting.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby sk4p » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:42 pm

On the question of reincarnating Masters and Ipsissimi, I had a thought a few weeks ago.

Crowley puts "93" in above "666" and "777" in some imprimaturs for libri. This is in reference to Aiwass, certainly, whose number is 93 and of whom Crowley wrote:

"a man as I am, insofar as He uses a human body to make His magical link with Mankind, whom He loves, and that He is thus an Ipsissimus, the Head of the A∴A∴" (Genesis Libri AL cap. VII, Magick part IV).

Okay. So let's say one's HGA is an Ipsissimus. Consider also the A∴A∴ rule about not attaining to a higher grade without preparing one's student to advance as well (the bodhisattva vow, in essence).

Ipsissimus is said to be beyond all understanding of those below it. But one could speculate: By bringing one's own "client" to be ready to become an Ipsissimus, perhaps the "senior" Ipsissimus becomes able to go on to whatever their next step of development is? Something beyond the Tree that we mere mortals can come to grips with?

Maybe just an idle thought, but it might be an interesting angle to put on the HGA/Adept relationship.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Starry Soul » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:44 pm

OSIS says there's an exception to the advancement rule. Perhaps that's the one.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:47 pm

sk4p wrote:Consider also the A∴A∴ rule about not attaining to a higher grade without preparing one's student to advance as well (the bodhisattva vow, in essence).

"The rule... is never relaxed in the Order of the R.C. or of the S.S.: save only in One Case." - One Star in Sight
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby sk4p » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:57 pm

Heh. Idle thought, then, I guess. :) (I hadn't previously considered that "One" being capitalized in that verse might mean something subtle ...)
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:12 pm

sk4p wrote:Heh. Idle thought, then, I guess. :) (I hadn't previously considered that "One" being capitalized in that verse might mean something subtle ...)

With Crowley and typography, damn near everything means something subtle <vbg>.

Now, whether it means the particular thing that my vague inference stirred as a projection in your psyche... well, that's a separate question LOL.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby gerry456 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:57 am

When your mind state is free of the five hindrances and your concentration is especially strong you enter the first jhana of pleasant sensations. It takes much practice and remember patience is very important. You may not experience your first jhanic state until many years of practice.". From wiki. What would we reincarnate as if we have experienced jhana one?
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:03 am

gerry456 wrote:What would we reincarnate as if we have experienced jhana one?

First, these technical details are distinctive to Buddhist theory, and may or may not be true as stated.

But, actually, it doesn't matter if they are, because the answer is the same in either case: The matter of reincarnation is utterly individual. There's not a manual in the sense of vacation spot brochures.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby gerry456 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:20 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:But, actually, it doesn't matter if they are, because the answer is the same in either case: The matter of reincarnation is utterly individual. There's not a manual in the sense of vacation spot brochures.


I was thinking more in terms of the hierarchy i.e. plants, animals, humans, magician/mystics and the possibility of returning as a plant or animal;

Image

It's an ISKCON poster.

If a being has attained to a particular jhana I would say that the future incarnation would involve a rediscovery of that jhana.

Also these jhanas (or "ecstacies" of the Christian mystics) seem to be trans-aeonic.
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby augur » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:30 pm

I think it really depends on what you mean by "masters" and what you mean by "reincarnation."

The "divine" (One Thing) is eternal, as such does not die, and thereby there is no need for reincarnation in the common western sense.

The idea of self most people have is misaligned with the reality of Self. There is only One Thing, and humans are a reflection of the One Thing, an expression of it. Our particular "personality" is transient in life, and thereby there is no reason to consider the extension of such beyond physical death. Eventually our attachment to it becomes a stumbling block on the path.

Masters have largely overcome this misalignment of Self and are consciously at one with the "divine" (One Thing). Personality and its various trappings no longer present a condition of separateness to them. Thereby the transition to death is a shedding of "physical form," and "there is that which remains" with which the "master" has found conscious union.

Expression of the divine is constant and expanding, and thereby continuously manifesting. In this sense once a "master" has passed from the physical form, the conscious union formed in life is extended as the divine constantly expresses and expands.
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Re: Can Masters reincarnate? Do they?

Postby gerry456 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:57 am

Awesome answer augar, please, if you will see the new thread on the Bardos/Tibetan Buddhist dieties in the Mysticism section.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14499
2.19 They shall rejoice, our chosen: who sorroweth is not of us.

2.21 We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world.
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