The making of a probationers robe.

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The making of a probationers robe.

Postby daredevil92103 » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:12 pm

I am currently trying to procure the things needed to make my probationer's robe. i'm not very good at sewing (the gods only know what this thing will turn out looking like :lol: )
anyone know a good general pattern to go but when actually making the thing?
the symbols i am not worried about, just the robe.
i am aware of the deliberate blind in all the pics one can find of the robe, and can procure the correct symbols.
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Re: The making of a probationers robe.

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:29 pm

daredevil92103 wrote:i am aware of the deliberate blind in all the pics one can find of the robe, and can procure the correct symbols.

There are no blinds at all in the pictures published in The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'.. The pictures, and the given description, are exactly right.
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Postby daredevil92103 » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:32 pm

ahhh.
havent looked at that one yet.
i just know most of the pics one finds on the net has a blind in it.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:37 pm

Not sure which pictures you mean. I'm not aware of anyone circulating a blind concerning that robe.

It is a white Tau robe, without hood. The neck, sleeves, and hem are trimmed with gold. Upon the breast is a scarlet Pentagram. Upon the back is a Hexagram, formed of the interlocking of a red triangle upward-pointed and a blue triangle downward-pointed. In the center of the Hexagram is a golden Greek Tau (that is, a standard English T, sans serif). Surviving photographs show the Hexagram large, covering much of the back above the waistline, and the Pentagram similarly proportioned to the front.

Thus has it been written: “Before me flames the Pentagram, and behind me shines the Six-Rayed Star.” And, in Liber 8: “the star of flame showeth forth Ra Hoor Khuit openly upon the breast, and secretly the blue triangle that descendeth is Nuit, and the red triangle that ascendeth is Hadit. And I [the Holy Guardian Angel] am the golden Tau in the midst of their marriage.”
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Postby Frater SOL » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:47 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:the blue triangle that descendeth is Nuit, and the red triangle that ascendeth is Hadit.


...also: "The Red Triangle is the descending tongue of grace; the Blue Triangle is the ascending tongue of prayer" - CCCXXXIII, Cap. 69

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Postby daredevil92103 » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:11 pm

yes, that is all the pictures i have seen, too.
but there is a blind that i am aware of.
i may be wrong.
i cant really say anything more about it.
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Postby frateruranus » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:50 pm

Some lineages use a black robe with the same symbols nowadays to differentiate the 0=0 robe from the 5=6 robe.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:31 am

frateruranus wrote:Some lineages use a black robe with the same symbols nowadays to differentiate the 0=0 robe from the 5=6 robe.

I see. Nope, that's wrong. (Not a blind, just wrong.) It's one of the more important symbols of the 0=0 robe that it is exactly the same as the robe of Adeptus Minor Without.
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Postby daredevil92103 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:15 am

that isnt the blind. i cant really say anything else about it.
once again i put my foot in my mouth.
:D
the main thing i'm looking for is a good template to make a probationer's robe from. i'm not much of a seamstress.
the blind isnt what i was was trying to find out, or even really say anything about, except to say that i am aware of it and that isnt an issue in the making of the robe.
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:58 am

Get 60" fabric twice your shoulder-to-floor height and a bit more. Fold it in the middle so that it is 60" across and your S2F height down.

Lay down on it, with your shoulders at the shoulder edge (the fold). Stretch out your arms to the sides. Have someone mark a point diagonally in about 5" (estimate) from each armpit.

Get up. Take a pencil. Draw a line from each dot to the nearest lower corner. Then, from each dot, draw a swooping descent off to the left or right edge to make a stylized, flowing sleeve picture.

You should have something that looks like a stylized T with flairing ends.

Snip snip. Snip snip. Sew where you snipped. You now have an inside-out robe except for the collar.

Take a pencil and draw a broad scoop - a shallow semi-circle - across the center of the top, from about 2" in from your shoulders on each side. Make it deep enough to very generously let your head through, and shallow enough that it isn't going to slip one way or the other. (Judgment call.)

Turn it inside-out. You have the not-quite-finished robe.

Hem the bottom and cuffs to size. Use part of what you trimmed off to make a facing for the collar.

Press.
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Postby daredevil92103 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:05 pm

thatnk you Jim.
once again just what i needed. sounds easy enough. i was really worried about this. lol. figured i wold end up with three sleeves and looking like it belonged on something out of a Lovecraft book.
:D
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Postby luxinhominefactum » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:13 am

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heh... i didn't know you all still used the old-school robes, jim, that's actually pretty cool. my own lineage has altered them somewhat.

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Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:36 am

luxinhominefactum wrote:heh... i didn't know you all still used the old-school robes, jim, that's actually pretty cool. my own lineage has altered them somewhat.

Our goal has always been to replicate and continue the A.'.A.'. system precisely as its founders/originators laid it out. The system works as designed and there's been no need to alter it.

Of course, I hardly think that a robe design is all that essential a matter. They do, however, encode some worthwhile symbols highly specific to the stage.

BTW, we don't use the designs depicted in the Halloween Special Supplment of the modern Equinox. It just happens that they had the Probationer robe right. The robe designs we use come from a page Regardie typed up at Crowley's request when working for him, and they're published in anj appendix of The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'..
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Postby luxinhominefactum » Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:30 am

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law

i forget when our lineage changed them. i think motta did it back in the sixties e.v., but i can't swear to that. before my time, certainly.

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Postby frateruranus » Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:25 pm

Motta changed them in the 60s when he started getting more students following the Equinox in Brazil and the founding of the Society of the New Aeon with Euclydes Lacerda de Almeida. The robes that are currently used though are not necessarily Motta's robes. The hoods were eliminated in favour of the Nemyss's as Frater Sphinx relates in Gold Coins of the Master in his comment on the verse of Liber AL regarding the woman's veil. The rest though is Motta's system of robes. I think the Motta/Sphinx/939 designs are quite elegant, especially when made with a nice satin with balanced well thought out uses of the colours.
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Symbols on the Robe

Postby xkip93 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:57 pm

Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Greetings.

Thanks for sharing the info. on the robe. Now that the construction of the robe is clear, what about the symbols?

What are they made of and how?

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Postby Seth Rah » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:28 pm

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Postby frateruranus » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:48 pm

Crowley would have Probationers working together such as the Rites of Eleusis & reading his working diaries like the Bartzabel working etc. Practicality & the Oaths of the A.'.A.'. makeit impossible for Probationers to not know each other in communities where an A.'.A.'. teacher is present & taking local students. Under the guidance of a higher initiate, say a Zelator or so, the "damage" can be minimalized. Essentially though, the idea is you don't share your personal work with others outside of your superior or when helping an inferior (in the sense of someone under you) by sharing your experiences. Lectures etc. are also useful for an A.'.A.'. instructor who works in private. Also, what of an OTO lodge (or similar org) that has a few members of the Probationer Grade... does that mean they are forbidden to work the Mass or Lodge group rituals or even the meet with each other in social gatherings, workings etc.? The idea is sound, but to execute it literally is impossible.
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Postby Tony DeLuce » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:55 pm

frateruranus wrote:Crowley would have Probationers working together such as the Rites of Eleusis & reading his working diaries like the Bartzabel working etc. Practicality & the Oaths of the A.'.A.'. makeit impossible for Probationers to not know each other in communities where an A.'.A.'. teacher is present & taking local students. Under the guidance of a higher initiate, say a Zelator or so, the "damage" can be minimalized. Essentially though, the idea is you don't share your personal work with others outside of your superior or when helping an inferior (in the sense of someone under you) by sharing your experiences. Lectures etc. are also useful for an A.'.A.'. instructor who works in private. Also, what of an OTO lodge (or similar org) that has a few members of the Probationer Grade... does that mean they are forbidden to work the Mass or Lodge group rituals or even the meet with each other in social gatherings, workings etc.? The idea is sound, but to execute it literally is impossible.


I believe the point was/is that individual members not work together regarding their specific A.'.A.'. curriculum. They can know each other and attend various functions together but should not be collaborating together regarding their individual A.'. A.'. Work. This would not preclude working together on the Rites of Eleusis or even living together for that matter...
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:29 pm

The principle is that members of the same grade to not interact as such with each other.

That is, they don't get together and have, say, a "Probationer's meeting."

But it's quite common for several to know each other, attend the same classes, show up at the same events, do magick together, talk about any number of things together, etc. etc. etc. - but they aren't meeting as A.'.A.'. members per se.
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Postby frateruranus » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:50 am

RifRaf, you are just re-iterating my point in different words.
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Postby frateruranus » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:30 pm

That is what I meant Rifraf, I was unclear in my original post
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Postby Seth Rah » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:02 pm

Yes, some of them are A.'.A.'. Probationers, and no, they are not working together in that system. That is a reunion of the Collegium ad Lux et Nox, an external work of A.'.A.'. that we develop in Brazil.
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Postby Frater SOL » Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:58 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
frateruranus wrote:Some lineages use a black robe with the same symbols nowadays to differentiate the 0=0 robe from the 5=6 robe.

I see. Nope, that's wrong. (Not a blind, just wrong.) It's one of the more important symbols of the 0=0 robe that it is exactly the same as the robe of Adeptus Minor Without.


In Ch. 23 of Magick Without Tears we are told that for a 0=0, "plain black is correct; and the Unicursal Hexagram might be embroidered upon the breast". Is this because the 0=0 robe doubled for 5=6, & possibly the original 0=0 robe design was made exclusive to 5=6 toward the end of 666's career on account of the micro/macro uniting aspects of the design?
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Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:43 pm

Arsihsis wrote:In Ch. 23 of Magick Without Tears we are told that for a 0=0, "plain black is correct; and the Unicursal Hexagram might be embroidered upon the breast". Is this because the 0=0 robe doubled for 5=6, & possibly the original 0=0 robe design was made exclusive to 5=6 toward the end of 666's career on account of the micro/macro uniting aspects of the design?

That passage has always been strange to me, and contradicts all other information available from any other source. It always seemed to me, from the syntax of the passage, that Crowley was admitting he couldn't remember and was making up something on the spot that might be useful to the person to whom he was writing.
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