mystical voyeurism

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mystical voyeurism

Postby gmugmble » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:54 am

"My Beloved dwells in my heart all day. I have actually seen that abode of joy." -- Meera Bai.

I'm taking an interest in the mystics these days, and I notice that most accounts I've encountered of mystical attainment suggest the K&C experience. Hindu saints like Meera Bai and Kabir, Sufis like Rumi and Hazrat Inayat Khan, Xian mystics like Francis and Claire of Assisi and Teresa of Avila, various cases in Bucke's Cosmic Consciousness -- all use images of the heart, light, and intimacy with "the Beloved".

But accounts that seem like Crossing the Abyss are rarer, and I wonder if anyone can suggest examples. John Yepes ("of the Cross") in his Spiritual Canticles says, "The soul ... has received great communications and many visits from its Beloved ..." and speaks of a "Spiritual Betrothal", which is clearly K&C, but maybe his "dark night of the soul" is the Abyss. Maybe Thomas Aquinas -- "After what has been vouchsafed to me, all that I have written seems like straw." (If the Summa Theologica was his Adept Exempt thesis, he didn't finish it; maybe the gods thought six hefty volumes was enough and that he should get on with it. :)) Any others?
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:55 am

I've never been clear whether St. John's "two dark nights" were Paroketh & the Abyss, or Tav and Paroketh - or, another way of saying the same thing, I've never been sure whether they were pre-Tiphereth and pre-Binah in the G.D. scale or in the A.'.A.'. scale.

And one of the complications of this is that there are many thresholds in life that have some similar characteristics. As I used to say often to young students who wanted to "cross the Abyss" before next Thursday afternoon: "We usually have to cross the Abyss many times before we're ready to start at the beginning." Unfortunately, I was usually misunderstood, and thought to affirming their realistic goal of making the leap.

What I meant to say was that it often takes many layers of breaking through ego-peripheries before we've cracked the old, dried fecal matter enough to even realize our head is lodged somewhere, let alone conceive that, perhaps, we might want to dislodge it.

As usual, I'm striving for clarity here :twisted:

I have tended to settle on the thought that Dark Night of the Soul was the work of a very deep and devoted Exempt Adept who either was right on the verge of crossing the Abyss, or possibly well through it. In any case, he was a very full Adept (in the A.'.A.'. sense). His description of the Beloved rings true both for the Adept's experience and for the later experience of the Angel by the Master.

St. Theresa, on the other hand, seemed totally Tiphereth-full Adept to me. Molinos (the third generation of that triad) wrote as brilliantly as anyone ever has about everything concentrated right before Tiphereth - his Spiritual Guide seems, to me, the ultimate Dominus Liminis text written by someone who had gone past that point.

You're right - it's harder to document Abyss experiences in historic literature. I've occassionally spent brief periods trying to identify when mystics of the past of made that crossing, and I really do think that it's been extremely rare - not so much that it's a brand new experience in human history, but that it has been very rare and only a handful of pioneers have accomplished it. Neshamah was not so readily available to humans at all (as a level from which actually to operate vs. the sense of something outside talking to us) until the Aeon of Horus. I think St. John is the sterling example. I think Lao Tsu was so far beyond it that he's not so representative of the Crossing the Abyss stage itself, as of post-Binah states. I think Buddha (meaning Gautama) is an easy peg for someone who crossed, but we only really know him after that is all over.

I'd have to dig a big to find some others. I'd like to see someone take that up and make a study of it.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:17 am

Is the story of Job a good example? Or are we sticking to mostly verifiable historical figures.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:17 am

Is the story of Job a good example? Or are we sticking to mostly verifiable historical figures.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:20 am

Another way to put this...

The K&C of the HGA is the next step for humanity in general right now. It's been the province primarily of the mystics and geniuses in the past. In fact, it's been their primary province. It's not at all surprising that this is almost all that you're finding in their work.

As the baseline changes, the peaks of the curve are going to change also. What used to pass for a Master now "only" (LOL!) passes for an Adept. The Adepti start on higher ground, and therefore are likely to peak, more and more, in the City of Pyramids rather than only on the slopes of Abiegnis.

Another complication: What would be most interesting to find (a real treasure trove) would be the diaries and writings of those undergoing the Babe of the Abyss experience - the approach to and transition into Supernal consciousness. But these will be very rare, because it is incredibly hard to compel oneself to express much of anything about what one is going through at that exact time. The things that make it to paper tend to be about something else. So, at best, we tend to have the fruits of those who have comfortably gotten past it.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:24 am

AvshalomBinyamin wrote:Is the story of Job a good example? Or are we sticking to mostly verifiable historical figures.

I think of Job as the story of a Major Adept. I have an old crude essay (i.e., mostly organized notes, never fully worked into an article as such) that may still be on this forum somewhere. The specific Divine Names and other things make that look like a 6=5 to me.

EDIT: Here's the article: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5424
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby gmugmble » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:49 am

AvshalomBinyamin wrote:Is the story of Job a good example? Or are we sticking to mostly verifiable historical figures.

I was thinking of people with good historical data, especially those who left autobiographical accounts, but mythological and legendary figures are of interest too. Maybe once you're past the Abyss, your historical records disappear and are replaced by myth :roll: The story of Buddha sitting beneath a tree, resolved not to move till he is enlightened, and battling Mara all night reminds me a bit of Crowley's duel with Choronzon in the 10th Aethyr.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby danica » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:24 pm

the story of Abraham has struck me as an interpretation/portrayal of Abyss-crossing experience ever since I read Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Smokey Monking » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:10 am

Jim Eshelman:
Neshamah was not so readily available to humans at all (as a level from which actually to operate vs. the sense of something outside talking to us) until the Aeon of Horus.

The K&C of the HGA is the next step for humanity in general right now. (...)

It´s curious to read this here, very recently I think about this particular, reading different things about theory of chaos, theory and information, some things of Teilhard de Chardin, and so on. But I have all that articles in Spanish, so… Anyway, if you could extent a little about this particular it would be very interesting. For doing it more specific, can have that any relation with some theories about the sort-of-exponential transmission and progress of information, or the evolution of knowledge/conciousness related to Teilhard de Chardin? Thanks.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:37 am

Do you have a specific question?
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Smokey Monking » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:25 am

Well, there can be any relation between the accessibility and progressive amount of information in our culture (not exactly in a quantitative way) or the development of knowledge in general, and that availability of Neshamah that you mentioned? Like in some way the Noosphere of Teilhard de Chardin, you know…

Sorry for my bad English, I´m trying to explain the best I can. :)
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Bereshith » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:33 am

SmokingMonkey wrote:Well, there can be any relation between the accessibility and progressive amount of information in our culture (not exactly in a quantitative way) or the development of knowledge in general, and that availability of Neshamah that you mentioned? Like in some way the Noosphere of Teilhard de Chardin, you know…

Sorry for my bad English, I´m trying to explain the best I can. :)

No problem. The question's a bit beyond me, but please don't be offended if I clarify it for others:

Well, [do you think] there could be any relationship between the accessibility and progressive amount of information in our culture (or the development of knowledge in general) and the availability of Neshamah that you mentioned? Like in some way the Noosphere of Teilhard de Chardin, you know…
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:00 am

Relationship, yes.

Which begs the further question of what kind of relationship.

Neshamah is not about "knowledge" in the usual sense - but increasing access to a transcendant framework that is (so to speak) a tesseract at right angles to the plane of knowledge... That certainly has a capacity to increase the accessibility and manageability of knowledge. (Just to mention one avenue.)
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Frater 639 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:54 am

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

SmokingMonkey wrote:Well, there can be any relation between the accessibility and progressive amount of information in our culture (not exactly in a quantitative way) or the development of knowledge in general, and that availability of Neshamah that you mentioned? Like in some way the Noosphere of Teilhard de Chardin, you know…

Certainly, there is a correlation or relationship between these things:

Norepinephrine (and other parts of the adrenal system), its relation to the limbic system and psychophysiology, leading to differences in gene expression (epigenetics), leading to soft inheritance, not unlike Lamarck, de Chardin, and Bergson's ideas.

Not just a broad humanistic vision, but also on a moment-to-moment basis, acting as the strange attractor to the "Mandlebrot Set" that follows.

The Omega Point can be considered the strange attractor.
But, the Omega Point can be considered Us. A relationship for sure! :wink:

Information fields go both ways, though. Anything else either believes in some sort of teleological imperative, or, at the other end, solipsism.

Profane science will accept the transference of these information fields in our lifetime (depending on the age of who is reading this, of course).

We "will" (to) create our own reality within and without.

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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Smokey Monking » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:00 pm

Sardonyx wrote:No problem. The question's a bit beyond me, but please don't be offended if I clarify it for others

Ok, don´t worry, thanks for the correction.

Jim Eshelman wrote:Neshamah is not about "knowledge" in the usual sense - but increasing access to a transcendant framework that is (so to speak) a tesseract at right angles to the plane of knowledge... That certainly has a capacity to increase the accessibility and manageability of knowledge. (Just to mention one avenue.)

This may sound redundant or obvious, but .. then the opposite, that open knowledge increase the access to Neshamah, is correct? I like to think in some kind of examples or references, I'm remembering now things like Wikileaks recently, what I assume could fit with that in some way at a wide nivel… (I know maybe I´m being too much eliptic, but it´s the only way to make me minimally understandable..)

Frater 639 wrote:Norepinephrine (and other parts of the adrenal system), its relation to the limbic system and psychophysiology, leading to differences in gene expression (epigenetics), leading to soft inheritance, not unlike Lamarck, de Chardin, and Bergson's ideas.

Not just a broad humanistic vision, but also on a moment-to-moment basis, acting as the strange attractor to the "Mandlebrot Set" that follows.

The Omega Point can be considered the strange attractor.
But, the Omega Point can be considered Us. A relationship for sure! :wink:

I´ve heard something about a biologist, Rupert Sheldrake (morphic camps, evolutionary biology), which could be related to this, but I really don´t know much about him.

Information fields go both ways, though. Anything else either believes in some sort of teleological imperative, or, at the other end, solipsism.

Profane science will accept the transference of these information fields in our lifetime (depending on the age of who is reading this, of course).

Yeah, I think that is the wide definition of the conception of telepathy of W. Burroughs, in which the information goes both ways. He often insists in the idea that what an artist do (or more generally a communicator of any kind) is to remind people what they already know.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:06 pm

SmokingMonkey wrote:This may sound redundant or obvious, but .. then the opposite, that open knowledge increase the access to Neshamah, is correct?

I think that likely is not true. Excess of knowledge (in the individual) tends to (a) reduce the inner necessity to access transcendant faculties and (b) outright block access to non-rational areas of mind that might otherwise be emerging.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Frater 639 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:11 pm

SmokingMonkey wrote:Yeah, I think that is the wide definition of the conception of telepathy of W. Burroughs, in which the information goes both ways. He often insists in the idea that what an artist do (or more generally a communicator of any kind) is to remind people what they already know.

Or, even further than this...such as the work of Dawkins...in the profane "scientific" community. The ideas of "collectivity" are very old...spirits and such. To remind someone of "something that they already know" is a slippery slope. When is the transfer to a priori knowledge? Is there such a thing?

"Telepathy" is an interesting word. It involves communication without speech? Could this be a meme? Could this be like the phenomenon related to mass hysteria? Or, its sister, mass media? :D

Can you explain what you mean by "telepathy"?
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Frater 639 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:18 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:I think that likely is not true. Excess of knowledge (in the individual) tends to (a) reduce the inner necessity to access transcendant faculties and (b) outright block access to non-rational areas of mind that might otherwise be emerging.


Hell yes. :D :D :D

That's been my experience, at least.

But, we're talking about two different kinds of "knowledge", correct? Ruach as opposed to Neshamah?
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Smokey Monking » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:31 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:I think that likely is not true. Excess of knowledge (in the individual) tends to (a) reduce the inner necessity to access transcendant faculties and (b) outright block access to non-rational areas of mind that might otherwise be emerging.

Yeah I agree, talking in the individual case.

Frater 639 wrote:Or, even further than this...such as the work of Dawkins...in the profane "scientific" community. The ideas of "collectivity" are very old...spirits and such. To remind someone of "something that they already know" is a slippery slope. When is the transfer to a priori knowledge? Is there such a thing?

"Telepathy" is an interesting word. It involves communication without speech? Could this be a meme? Could this be like the phenomenon related to mass hysteria? Or, its sister, mass media? :D

Can you explain what you mean by "telepathy"?

"Telepathy" was related to the comunication mentioned which goes in both ways.. I´m sorry I couldn´t explain it better right now, as that of the "a priori knowledge".. Maybe, personally, I´ve always found more affinity with the ideas that I first think by my own, and then after that read something that say the same thing.. But maybe it´s not exaclty like that.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Frater 639 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:40 pm

SmokingMonkey wrote:Maybe, personally, I´ve always found more affinity with the ideas that I first think by my own, and then after that read something that say the same thing.. But maybe it´s not exaclty like that.

Teasing apart (or putting it back together?) the Ego and the Non-Ego is a part of the Work. :D
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Smokey Monking » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:28 pm

Frater 639:
Teasing apart (or putting it back together?) the Ego and the Non-Ego is a part of the Work. :D

Wat? I don´t understand.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Frater 639 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:29 pm

SmokingMonkey wrote:Wat? I don´t understand.


In this context, I was referring to an aspect of the Great Work. If you are not familiar with that term, this site provides valuable information as to what that is, as well as elucidation of techniques and milestones of the achievements associated with it. As an example, this thread in particular has a wealth of information.

Read up and, most of all, have fun! :D
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Smokey Monking » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:23 pm

No no.. I know that, I mean I didn’t understand the context in what you said that. I think maybe you misinterpreted something, anyway I was not much clear: I was referring to the “a priori knowledge” mentioned with the sentence you quoted, I was trying to explain it in some way:

Maybe, personally, I´ve always found more affinity with the ideas that I first think by my own, and then after that read something that say the same thing.. But maybe it´s not exaclty like that.


In any case, no problem bro.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Smokey Monking » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:08 am

Dar es Alrah:
I think when you have a sufficiently good meta model of the universe then this complication disappears. Qabalah is a pretty good as a universal meta-model but there are something's that you can't hang on the tree, and it's that sort of knowledge that becomes 'blocking'. The tree provides for no explanations for why things are the way they are unless you are prepared to accept religious accounts of the creation of the universe or the place of consciousness in it.The tree describes. It does not explain. For someone with a scientific mind, that' an unacceptable state of affairs... so they have all this 'knowledge' they're assimilating but nowhere to hang it on their overall meta-model. Instead they end up with several different paradigms that are unable to be unified and assimilated in the individual, causing a sort of cognitive dissonance that can block him until such a time that they find one universal meta-model that is a sufficiently good map of the universe. A sufficiently good universal meta-model is one that allows for new explanations, data, knowledge of all kinds, to be easily assimilated into just that ONE universal meta-model, including the incorporation/explanation of transcendent faculties to it so that they remain open and use-able.

I agree in general. I assume that by "blocking knowledge" you´re talking about dogma, or, more than a sort of knowledge in special, the relationship that one have with knowledge in general (which on the other hand could be a specific sort of knowledge?). I refer to the fact of how for some people the greatest words of truth or freedom, or the scientific method even, can become pure dogma and lies. I´m pretty sure that if dogma is stayed ayaw, right (or superior, or whatever) knowledge has way to become progressively more and more clear.
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Re: mystical voyeurism

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:58 am

Smoke, I wonder if you're using "knowledge" in a different way than I am (which would account for some seeming disparity). I'm careful to use "knowledge" as a technical term that excludes the transrational. My remarks explicitly presumed you meant "rational, intellectual knowledge" (which is redundant, but I stretched it to communicate <g>).
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