Pranayama Results

[Cygnus]

General notes on progress with pranayama:

- Can comfortably do an 11/44/22 cycle, and can extend higher but haven't pushed it out to an hour.

- Can greatly prolong kumbhaka stage using additional yogic techniques.

- Quickly progress through heavy sweat stage at 5-10 min or so, begin to get kundalini flashes (body rushes, energy rushing to head, pleasurable whole-body energy phenomena) when warming up at 15/15/15 (I go through each stage of Liber E briefly as a warm-up before going on to higher pranayamas).

- After progressing past 15/15/15, these effects stop though sweat may persist. After getting up to 10/40/20 and extending past about 30 min. of practice, I begin to pass into stages that I would identify with the following markers:

* Feelings of ego death (internal dialogue and sense of self begin to flatten and I enter into a mentally silenced state, beginning to lose sense of a separate observer. Emotions are flattened as well and feel "airy" as if the individual neuroses have been severed... by a dagger of air? )

* Loss of sense of body, entering into non-local bliss

* Extreme highs, identical (!) in my experience to a very heavy opiate high which severs connection to body and separate neurotic ego

It occurs to me that these phenomena may be what's discussed as the fourth stage of Pranayama, "rising into the air."

What I haven't experienced (unless I'm misinterpreting signs?) is the type of "automatic rigidity" that I did during long asana practice, when the body actually did lock up and then enter a bliss state. It stays fluid, especially as there is so much movement in pranayama, even if I lose sense of it.

I wanted to run this by you and see how it fits with your experience and with the technical requirements of One Star in Sight?

[Cygnus]

Is this a taboo topic?

[Simon Iff]

Your question wasn't directed at me, I'll answer anyways

First thing is I can't discern the question, I mean what is it you want feedback about? It's a progress report on your experiences with pranayama and they sound like to-be-expected experiences of an experienced pranayamee to me. Personally, I have never experienced pratyahara in pranayama and always assumed that it can't happen as I move my hands about and have my eyes open, I do not know if this assumption of mine is correct or if someone has made differing experiences.

I have also wondered if the descriptions of "jumping into the air" or "rising" have more to do with the kind of ecstatic feelings you describe, but the original sources and indian and tibetan miracle anecdotes seem to imply that people meant that literally originally. As I have never experienced a levitation phenomenon during pranayama I couldn't say.

I did experience a part-levitation phenomena once though on two days in a row during meditation, where only part of my right big toe was still on the floor and there was no way my balance could have normally held such a position towards gravity, I only noticed when I opened my eyes at the end and then stayed there for about 20 seconds, and thumped back to the floor then. This happened only these two times, I don't know what triggered it, couldn't and can't repeat it and I think it was unrelated to pranayama (though I did a daily half-hour of that too, at the time).

Hope it starts discussion and is not thread hijack.

Cheers

Simple Simon

[Cygnus]

That's very cool!

I guess this is my specific question: I'm trying to understand exactly what Crowley means by Automatic Rigidity (which, BTW, is not mentioned in the classic texts). Is it the kundalini flashes that occur before the ecstatic, weightless states I describe, where the body surges and goes calm (but does not "lock up" as with an advanced asana, especially as pranayama involves so much movement)? Or is it something specific I need to keep pushing to get to? (I'm currently grinding on the 32/64/16 level, for ten-fifteen minute periods.)

[Jim Eshelman]

The automatic rigidity is essentially the same as the asana effect, and from primarily the same causes.

As for the levitation, I'm sure that it's meant literally because (only one time) it happened to me. I only rose a few inches. My balance was bad (bad gyro" type of effect, and then my mind became excited and I dropped hard.

I could have been persuaded that the event was really something else - perhaps an astral separation with unusual energy and physical word perception - were it not for the big bruise on my left leg where I came down hard.

[Cygnus]

Aha, thanks!

[Jim Eshelman]

Just checking something Jim... Was there any sensation of transition or rising in between being on the floor and in the air or was it more like - you were on the floor... and then in a different time/space position up in the air? (a - D jump.) I've known that happen (not to me).

Smooth transition. The major thing was visual: I was kneeling in posture, doing pranayama, in front of my altar, and noticed the top of the altar dropping down past my face, i.e., it took a moment to register that I was rising (wondered why everything else was slowly dropping away). Best guess is that it took maybe 10 seconds to rise 6" or so, at which point I registered what was happening, tiltd like a gyro was off, mentally flailed, and dropped.

I've had other events (different kinds) that seemed like a movie scene transition. ("Soon he found himself walking half a mile from his house" or whatever.) One in particular I tend to think to this day was entirely astral because I was (as you say, in a different time/space) somewhere else, spent time there, and then came home - with the 'going' and 'coming' not existing in memory. This one was different, though.

[Simon Iff]

... what Crowley means by Automatic Rigidity (which, BTW, is not mentioned in the classic texts) ...

He means Pratyahara, actually it is mentioned in the classic texts for example Patanjali, Hatha Yoga Pradipika.

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratyahara

... "lock up" as with an advanced asana ...

That is a phenomenon that is part of the parcel that is Pratyahara. It has been interpreted by neurologists as the same state you are in when you are dreaming - the body locks so that when you experience something very dynamic you do not hurt yourself by trashing about or accidentally strangling someone next to you

At certain stages of focusation and sitting still the body goes into the same state, the mind too actually, an EEG shows a combination of REM-sleep and widely awake patterns if in Pratyahara + Dharana.

... I'm currently grinding on the 32/64/16 level, for ten-fifteen minute periods.

If "grinding" implies you are straining yourself I would suggest going down to a rythm that you can just so do without straining - you can endanger your physical health (and do not get all the benefits from a good Pranayama) if you overstrain this.

Smooth transition. The major thing was visual: I was kneeling in posture, doing pranayama, in front of my altar, and noticed the top of the altar dropping down past my face, i.e., it took a moment to register that I was rising (wondered why everything else was slowly dropping away). Best guess is that it took maybe 10 seconds to rise 6" or so, at which point I registered what was happening, tilted like a gyro was off, mentally flailed, and dropped.

Fascinating. My experience was similar in two aspects, in that the first thing I noticed was strange when opening my eyes was that my POV was wrong, and then that when I dropped, it sure felt like dropping 20 centimeters down on my legs.

I've had other events (different kinds) that seemed like a movie scene transition. ("Soon he found himself walking half a mile from his house" or whatever.) One in particular I tend to think to this day was entirely astral because I was (as you say, in a different time/space) somewhere else, spent time there, and then came home - with the 'going' and 'coming' not existing in memory.

Intrigued that you write about these experiences here, I am even more interested because I have also experienced phenomena of lost or altered space/time stretches like these, sometimes together with other people not trained in anything, and your's sound quite similar to those experiences of mine. It is sometimes difficult to differentiate between interpretations of altered state of consciousness, an astral experience or an actually physical one (subjective, astral or objective?) with these I think.

It can only be decided indirectly as in, what did other witnesses (if any) experience, were they all sober or under some influence, how similar have the experiences been, is it possible to predict things as a result of the experience that can be verified objectively, etc.

Would be quite interested in sharing, dissecting and attempting to interpret experiences like that, btw.

Cheers

Simply Simon

P.S.:

I had a weird/similar experience of my own once. Although it was more of a jumpy switch, like Dar describes. I won't explain because their is no reason for any one to take my word for it. Also, it's not related to the subject of the thread.

Even if it is impossible to verify the veracity of anecdotes like that, it is still interesting to share experiences not so many people have, as in trying to understand them. Method of science anyone? So imo share away

[Jim Eshelman]

... what Crowley means by Automatic Rigidity (which, BTW, is not mentioned in the classic texts) ...

He means Pratyahara, actually it is mentioned in the classic texts for example Patanjali, Hatha Yoga Pradipika.

Automatic rigidity = pratyahara? I truly don't see how you came to that conclusion.

Automatic rigidity is a physial phenomenon. Pratyahara is a psyvcholpgocal practice (or, in a different usage, it's a result). Your statement seems to totally ignore the very real, observable, fairly easy to attain physical phenomonon.

I'm guessing you mean the A.R. is a phenomenon that can accompany pratyahara. I wouldn't disagree with that, and would also observe that it can (and does) occur without pratyahara, during prelminary practices of asana and pranayama.

... "lock up" as with an advanced asana ...

That is a phenomenon that is part of the parcel that is Pratyahara. It has been interpreted by neurologists as the same state you are in when you are dreaming - the body locks so that when you experience something very dynamic you do not hurt yourself by trashing about or accidentally strangling someone next to you

I think you're onto something here. It does have a lot in common with that.

[Simon Iff]

I'm guessing you mean the A.R. is a phenomenon that can accompany pratyahara.

Yes, this. I re-read what I wrote and noticed that I haven't made myself clear enough, enabling the misunderstanding. What you wrote here expresses better what I meant.

I wouldn't disagree with that, and would also observe that it can (and does) occur without pratyahara, during prelminary practices of asana and pranayama.

Again agreed. This is what I meant to imply when I wrote "the locking is part of the parcel of pratyahara". So, the lock is possible to occur without pratyahara, and differentiating what I meant to say further, the psychological part of pratyahara can also happen with pranayama (I observed that), but I have never observed the lock-up with pranayama. I have a tendency to include the lock into my personal definition of pratyahara, interesting to notice that this makes statements ambiguous unintentionally ...

Hope I cleared that up suitably and made myself understandable this time!

... "lock up" as with an advanced asana ...

That is a phenomenon that is part of the parcel that is Pratyahara. It has been interpreted by neurologists as the same state you are in when you are dreaming - the body locks so that when you experience something very dynamic you do not hurt yourself by trashing about or accidentally strangling someone next to you

I think you're onto something here. It does have a lot in common with that.

The two phenomena also exhibit a very similar feeling in my experience.

Me and my brother caught him out when he went from the computer downstairs to the bathroom (upstairs) while we were talking on the stairs and he came out of the bathroom and went to walk back down the stairs and encountered us asking - how did you get upstairs without passing us?

I have this suspicion that most of the truly weird and seemingly non-psychological aspects of many paranormal phenomena might be macroscopic "wave-like" quantum events. To go deeper into that assumption would become a quite extended discussion, though.

Cheers

Simon

[Cygnus]

Pranyama Results 2:

After practice of a year and a half, I can now do 32/64/16 pranayama easily and comfortably for an hour, daily. Have achieved results: head and nervous system light up and body "disappears" into surging bliss in exactly the same way that a successful asana achieves. Skin contracting, energy surging across body as it disappears in a huge, orgasmic "nervous system event."

Where would I go from here?

[Jim Eshelman]

Begin with Liber Ru. In the middle it will tell you to do what's in Liber E, so go there. Then return to finish what Liber Ru says.

The numbers, length, etc. don't matter much IMO. (I say "much" because there actually is gain from longer retention - but that's not the main issue.) The reason for the accelerating rhythms is just so you have something to push toward, so you don't run out of "somewhere to go." In the Zelator training, it's pretty concentrated within a relatively short period of time, and to keep accelerating in that puts a sustained tension on the subtle body that produces many of the desired results. But it would do it just as well if it was a struggle for you to do 4-8-8, and you managed to push it to 6-12-12.

[Cygnus]

OK. Did everything in Liber E, then back to Liber Ru, and pushed it up to the top number (32/64/16), the point where it says "let him still further increase the period."

From Ru, I've done the First, Second, Third, Sixth and Eleventh practices.

[Cygnus]

So at that point would it simply be "do the rest of the subsidiary practices"?

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes

[Cygnus]

Thank you

[Uni_Verse]

As for the levitation, I'm sure that it's meant literally because (only one time) it happened to me. I only rose a few inches. My balance was bad (bad gyro" type of effect, and then my mind became excited and I dropped hard.

Hrm, many of the comments on this thread have lead to some pondering...

I never paid much mind to it at the time, but a number of individuals claimed to see me "floating."

I say floating as opposed to levitation as I was not stationary. Instead this occurred while walking, as I am wont to do, and meditating as I do so. The meditation exercise involved synchronizing my walking along with my breathing, a cycle of mundras as well as a cycle of visualizations.

Two instances in particular stick out in my mind...

I was walking through a super-market. There was a woman working at the Customer Service desk that I am acquainted with. She is generally known to be a bitch (she has all ways been courteous and friendly with me) and seems to have a permanent look of distaste etched on her features.

Turning my head, to offer a friendly greeting I found her staring at me, mouth agape. I inquired as to what was wrong. A look of confusion over took her, as she began to say: "You... you do not walk. You just... you just kind of float across.. I mean.. your feet.. just.. " Laughing nervously, she wrote off the experience to having a rough day and has not mentioned it since.

The other instance that comes to mind involves a friend with a more interesting take on the phenomenon. He called it "the serial killer walk." Which took me rather aback, so I asked for him to go into more detail.

This was how he described it: "You know, like those killers in movies, where they all ways walk yet manage to overtake the person who is running. As, you look like you are taking a leisurely stroll, but you cover ground as if you were running. It even appears as if your feet are not even touching the ground, floating just above, free from the effects of gravity. "

He paused, shifting posture, indicating a level of discomfort. "You freak me out sometimes, lets just move on."

Blah! I was going to explore the 'teleporting' phenomenon mentioned by Dar but I must be off!

[Jim Eshelman]

[quote="Uni_Verse"]I never paid much mind to it at the time, but a number of individuals claimed to see me "floating."[/qiuote]
But... we know what they mean, right? I mean, many of the times I've run into you I thought you were floating.

[Uni_Verse]

Are you trying to imply I came off as an air head ? :p

[Laura Marx]

Just had a look at Liber Ru (Liber CCVI - RV vel Spiritus) for interests sake, saw the section now quoted:

4. Second practice. Pranayama. --- This is outlined in Liber E. Further, let the Zelator accomplished in those practices endeavour to master a cycle of 10, 20, 40 or even 16, 32, 64. But let this be done gradually and with due caution. And when he is steady and easy both in Asana and Pranayama, let him still further increase the period.
Thus let him investigate these statements which follow: ---

a. If Pranayama be properly performed, the body will first of all become covered with sweat. This sweat is different in character from that customarily induced by exertion. If the Practitioner rub this sweat thoroughly into his body, he will greatly strengthen it.
b. The tendency to perspiration will stoÿ as the practice is continued, and the body become automatically rigid.
Describe this rigidity with minute accuracy.
c. The state of automatic rigidity will develop into a state characterised by violent spasmodic movements of which the Practitioner is unconscious, but of whose result he is aware. This result is that the body hops gently from place to place. After the first two or three occurrences of this experience, Asana is not lost. The body appears (on another theory) to have lost its weight almost completely and to be moved by an unknown force.
d. As a development of this stage, the body rises into the air, and remains there for an appreciably long period, from a second to an hour or more.

Seems to be exactly what you guys are talking about. 'The body hops gently from place to place,' especially that 'movements of which the Practitioner is unconscious' - seems very similar to what Jim was describing, and d. seems to be referring unambiguously to the so-described levitation. Crowley seems to suggest that the levitation is a direct result of the movement from place to place.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Just had a look at Liber Ru (Liber CCVI - RV vel Spiritus) for interests sake, saw the section now quoted:

4. Second practice. Pranayama. --- This is outlined in Liber E. Further, let the Zelator accomplished in those practices endeavour to master a cycle of 10, 20, 40 or even 16, 32, 64. But let this be done gradually and with due caution. And when he is steady and easy both in Asana and Pranayama, let him still further increase the period.
Thus let him investigate these statements which follow: ---

a. If Pranayama be properly performed, the body will first of all become covered with sweat. This sweat is different in character from that customarily induced by exertion. If the Practitioner rub this sweat thoroughly into his body, he will greatly strengthen it.
b. The tendency to perspiration will stoÿ as the practice is continued, and the body become automatically rigid.
Describe this rigidity with minute accuracy.
c. The state of automatic rigidity will develop into a state characterised by violent spasmodic movements of which the Practitioner is unconscious, but of whose result he is aware. This result is that the body hops gently from place to place. After the first two or three occurrences of this experience, Asana is not lost. The body appears (on another theory) to have lost its weight almost completely and to be moved by an unknown force.
d. As a development of this stage, the body rises into the air, and remains there for an appreciably long period, from a second to an hour or more.

Seems to be exactly what you guys are talking about. 'The body hops gently from place to place,' especially that 'movements of which the Practitioner is unconscious' - seems very similar to what Jim was describing, and d. seems to be referring unambiguously to the so-described levitation. Crowley seems to suggest that the levitation is a direct result of the movement from place to place.

Interesting explanation for that experience.

Also, very timely of you to bump this thread since I just recently started working on pranayama myself and actually looked at this thread just last night. Certainly not the easiest or most comfortable practice.

[Mercvrivs]

Crowley mentions the possibility of experimenting with the effects of varying the breath cycle as well as noting the effects of certain gases--among which he includes carbon dioxide. This is interesting because oxygen and carbon dioxide levels in the blood have everything to do with blood Ph levels--which can swing in either the direction of acidosis or alkalosis. Now, I do not wish to attribute every PY phenomenon to the acidosis/alkalosis ratios; however, given that PY techniques certainly, and quite quickly, alter blood Ph, we can at least think of the physiological phenomenon as the locus or "support" of certain PY effects. Thus, for example, acidosis, or blood Ph lower than 7.3, can produce tetany--which in a controlled state of PY and Dhyana can surely be understood to account for "automatic rigidity". It is fascinating, and needs to be explored further--if I recall, a small book on yoga by Ernest Woods has a chapter concerning these effects as well in physio terms.
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/ap/foxhumphy ... ding1.html

[Jim Eshelman]

The OP brings up a good point. Where to go after working hard on asana/pranayama. The end result?.

If you have not passed all the other exams for 2=9, then the next step would be those.
http://ordoaa.org/grade2.htm

If you have passed them, then it's the tasks of 3=9.
http://ordoaa.org/grade3.htm

[danica]

Yes I meant ultimately why was he doing these paranayama sessions in the long term? The goal was to be able to build up magical force in ritual.

In the A.'.A.'. , the goal of all the practices of the first 6 grades (from Probationer, to Dominus Liminis) is to become well-equipped ans stable enough to attain K&C of the HGA.

[Anchorite]

About automatic rigidity.
I have achieved it twice in corpse - I'm learning Dragon at the moment since I figured it was more 'portable'.
Now the difference seems to be , when in corpse the shaking and muscular spasms seem to be balanced against the floor in some way. The only 'movement' is a nice stretching of the spine vertically with relaxing neck pops, turning in and out of pain until all pain is gone and ridgidty paradoxically became utter relaxation while still remaining rigid.

In Dragon, within five minutes the legs are alternately utterly relaxed AND twitching to such a degree they actually launch me into the air to a point where the feet themselves are almost leaving the floor. Last night I spent 3 minutes twitching up and down about twice a second. Like sitting on a jackhammer!
The more I practice, the sooner the jerking begins.
Wonder if that was part of the 'jumping around like a frog' early symptoms.*

*edit , after 2 days more practice , no it's not, it's just simply the thighs trying to relax through years of tenseness IMO.