Tzaddi is not the Star

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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:14 am

You're using the Trump number correspondence in one pair to argue the Hebrew and Zodiac correspondences in the other pair.

The only thing that got switched (in the sense that the original order of the Major Arcana isn't in aleph-beth-ical order) between Lust and Justice was the trump number (8 and 11). Strength/Lust was always Leo, and Justice was always Libra.

The argument your images make is that if you wanted to be perfectly symmetrical, you would do the same for the Emperor and the Star, so the Emperor would remain Heh, Aquarius and the Star would remain Tzaddi, Aries. You would just switch the 4 and 17.

But that doesn't help with the whole "Tzaddi is not the Star".

So, if you switch Tzaddi/Star and Heh/Emperor, but leave the zodiac, like you do, you have Tzaddi/Aquarius/Emperor and Heh/Aries/Star.

Then, by your logic, we'd have to be symmetrical, and do the same with Strength/Leo and Justice/Libra.

So now we have Strength/Libra/Lamed and Justice/Leo/Teth.

In short, you're over-complicating it.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Modest » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:37 am

To make things crystal clear. The zodiac-hebrew letter attribution is form Sepher Yetzirah (Chapter 4) and is centuries old so far I know. Both Golden Dawn and Crowley use the Sepher Yetzirah zodiac attributions, the French Martinists do the same. In Sepher Yetzirah (Chapter 4) the attributions are Teth/Leo, Lamed/Libra, Tzaddi/Aquarius, He/Aries. To brake those attributions in a disorganized way would be not acceptable by anyone. There are NO LOOPS in Sepher Yetzirah zodiac-letter attributions.THE LOOPS are in zodiac to Marseille's Tarot roman number sequence attributions (see pic 2, pic 3) as Crowley stated himself(quotes included in the post before).

Jim Eshelman wrote:What makes this confusing is that the Teth-Lamed issue was never out of whack (until Waite "broke" it).

Waite didn't brake it. It was already broken in Book T. Don't blame Waistcoat. :D
Golden Dawn (or Waite) and Crowley differ in the way they solve the problem to achieve symmetry in the zodiac. Golden Dawn does MODIFY Marseille's Tarot roman number sequence (pic 1) - Crowley does NOT (pic 2, pic 3). But they both use the same Sepher Yetzirah attributions to fix that. Why Crowley kicked GD ass? Because he didn't brake the Marseille's Tarot roman number sequence attributions (in use since 1650) and achieved a kind of symmetry of the zodiac - that's all. Solving "Tzaddi is not The Star" is a by-product.
Avshalom Binyamin wrote:So now we have Strength/Libra/Lamed and Justice/Leo/Teth.

No, look again at pic 3 = the same as Book of Thoth, page 279, the Columns under the name The Tarot of Egyptians. It is written that 11 Teth/Leo Lust, 8 Lamed/Libra Adjustment, 4 Tzaddi/Aquarius The Emperor, 17 He/Aries The Star. As I see it is in the book so official in the OTO. Is it clear now Avshalom Binyamin? If not, you can get The Book of Thoth online and look for yourself at the page.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:03 am

Modest wrote:Both Golden Dawn and Crowley use the Sepher Yetzirah zodiac attributions, the French Martinists do the same. In Sepher Yetzirah (Chapter 4) the attributions are Teth/Leo, Lamed/Libra, Tzaddi/Aquarius, He/Aries.

No, you don't have that right. Crowley's post-CCXX form is Tzaddi=Aries, Heh=Aquarius. The final result is:

IV Emperor = Tzaddi = Aries
XVII Star = Heh = Aquarius

To brake those attributions in a disorganized way would be not acceptable by anyone.

Wrong. The letter-to-sign attributions are what was originally wrong. Sepher Yetzirah was either wrong or blinded in this regard.

Avshalom Binyamin wrote:So now we have Strength/Libra/Lamed and Justice/Leo/Teth.

No, look again at pic 3 = the same as Book of Thoth, page 279, the Columns under the name The Tarot of Egyptians. It is written that 11 Teth/Leo Lust, 8 Lamed/Libra Adjustment, 4 Tzaddi/Aquarius The Emperor, 17 He/Aries The Star.

Those are errors in the table, which was malformed. (That's perhaps what's misleading and confusing you through all of this.) Read, instead, the textual sections on The Star and The Emperor earlier in the book, and you will see that he persisted in Emperor = Aries and Star = Aquarius, which are pretty basic to the natures of the cards.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Modest » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:32 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:No, you don't have that right. Crowley's post-CCXX form is Tzaddi=Aries, Heh=Aquarius. The final result is:

IV Emperor = Tzaddi = Aries
XVII Star = Heh = Aquarius

Jim Eshelman wrote:The letter-to-sign attributions are what was originally wrong. Sepher Yetzirah was either wrong or blinded in this regard.

Crowley's post-CCXX New Comment:
The New Comment (c. 1921) chap. 1 line 57 wrote:Tzaddi is the letter of The Emperor, the Trump IV, and He is the Star, the Trump XVII. Aquarius and Aries are therefore counterchanged.

Original:
IV Emperor = Heh = Aries
XVII Star = Tzaddi = Aquarius
Counterchanged:
IV Emperor = Tzaddi = Aquarius
XVII Star = Heh = Aries

What don't you understand about the word "counterchanged"? So now we have that the Sepher Yetzirah is a blind, and Crowley's post-CCXX New Comment is a blind too? So Book of Thoth, page 10 is a blind too?
Jim Eshelman wrote:Read, instead, the textual sections on The Star and The Emperor earlier in the book, and you will see that he persisted in Emperor = Aries and Star = Aquarius, which are pretty basic to the natures of the cards.

I have read the book. The textual sections on The Star and The Emperor are a blind. They can't prove the double loop in the zodiac-number perfect symmetry as the Crowley's post-CCXX New Comment does and Book of Thoth, page 10 which is almost a copy-paste of the New Comment.

Jim, can you show me a double loop in the zodiac and numbers "sublimely, perfectly, flawlessly symmetrical" with the IV Emperor = Tzaddi = Aries, XVII Star = Heh = Aquarius? Book of Thoth, page 11 diagram is NOT "sublimely, perfectly, flawlessly symmetrical" as anyone who can count sees. If you wan't to see perfect symmetry in diagram form look at my pic 3 or see Book of Thoth, page 279, the Columns under the name The Tarot of Egyptians for the text.
Jim, do you understand why the loop in the zodiac formed in the first place? And why in GD Tarot there is no loop?
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:54 am

No, you''ve got it exactly backwards. But I'm going to stop arguing with you. I've had my say two or three times already, and don't have time to keep repeating myself.

Modest wrote:Jim, can you show me a double loop in the zodiac and numbers "sublimely, perfectly, flawlessly symmetrical" with the IV Emperor = Tzaddi = Aries, XVII Star = Heh = Aquarius?

No, and you're just being rhetorical - I've already stated (and you've quoted) "The loop is done by plotting the Hebrew letters and the Tarot card numbers. You're confusing yourself by introducing the zodiac to it."

Jim, do you understand why the loop in the zodiac formed in the first place? And why in GD Tarot there is no loop?

Yes to both. In the first case, as stated in The Zohar, the meaning of Tzaddi needed to be blinded until a later time. The creators of Tarot appear to have been quite aware that the vernal equinox had shifted back into Pisces, and therefore created Tarot with the zodiacal elements on the Virgo-Pisces axis. The original was created, therefore, to show this in the design and yet mask the real characteristics of Tzaddi.

As for the GD, I don't have time to write another essay on it (it would take an essay), but the long and short of it is: The apparent discrepancy was already hinted at in the cipher manuscripts on which G.D. was founded, but they settled into the Marseille model of numeration probably as the path of least resistance. Waite and Case both took one path to reconcilling the seeming discrepancy, but their path actually made things worse (adding two pairs or errors instead of one). Liber L. pointed to the real issue.

I can see why you are confused about this - Crowley, for years, was sorting the thing out gradually and then was ambivalent about whether to communicate it. Book of Thoth had numerous small errors (bad proof-reading, illustrations inverted by the printer, tables that never got proofed properly - he may actually have been sincere when he said the whole thing was dashed off). But he seems not to have been overly concerned about this sort of thing where this issue was concerned, since Liber L. indicated he would only "reveal it to the wise."
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Modest » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:57 am

Aleister Crowley wrote:The New Comment to CCXX
Aquarius and Aries are therefore counterchanged, revolving on the pivot of Pisces, just as, in the Trumps VIII and XI, Leo and Libra do about Virgo.

Book of Thoth page 11 diagram "The Double Loop in the Zodiac".
http://www.cornelius93.com/Zodiac_Belt_5.JPG


Crowley clearly writes and draws in his books about a zodiac- tarot number loop and you clearly talk about a letter- tarot number loop. Okay, I go home and have a banana. Thank you, Jim, making the effort to discuss this issue. Now, your oppinion is clear to me.

Jim Eshelman wrote:The loop is done by plotting the Hebrew letters and the Tarot card numbers. You're confusing yourself by introducing the zodiac to it.

Jim Eshelman wrote:The letter-to-sign attributions are what was originally wrong. Sepher Yetzirah was either wrong or blinded in this regard.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Modest » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:52 am

Got back from my banana break. :) So crystal clear you state that the letter-number loop is perfectly symmetrical with:
IV Emperor = Tzaddi = Aries
XVII Star = Heh = Aquarius
Yes, it is! BUT is the zodiac-number loop perfectly symmetrical with these attributions? No, it isn't (see my pic 2)! Don't you see a problem with that, Jim?

Crowley surely does:
The New Comment (c. 1921) chap. 1 line 57:
This last revelation makes our Tarot attributions sublimely, perfectly, flawlessly symmetrical.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:57 am

The problem I see is that Crowley was screwd up in his description. It happens.

It's probably just a language issue. The flip of the numbers gives the loop which then (off-diagram) causes the zodiac flip to be perfectly symmetrical. All he meant by "perfectly symmetrical" is that Aries-Aquarius gets flipped against the numbers just as Leo-Libra was already flipped.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Modest » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:23 am

A comment to the New Comment by Modest
"The New Comment (c. 1921) chap. 1 line 57"
“Tzaddi is the letter of The Emperor, the Trump IV, and He is the Star, the Trump XVII.”
The double loop in Hebrew letters – Marseille's/Crowley's Thoth Tarot Trump numbers.
“Aquarius and Aries are therefore counterchanged, revolving on the pivot of Pisces, just as, in the Trumps VIII and XI, Leo and Libra do about Virgo.”
The double loop in Zodiac – Marseille's/Crowley's Thoth Tarot Trump numbers.
“This last revelation makes our Tarot attributions sublimely, perfectly, flawlessly symmetrical.”
There is no other way to make ALL the Tarot attributions symmetrical using Marseille's/Crowley's Thoth Tarot Trump number sequence.
Image
Trump IV The Emperor Tzaddi Aquarius
Trump XVII The Star He Aries

So, Jim, you're right that Crowley wrote about the double loop in Hebrew letters – Marseille's/Crowley's Thoth Tarot Trump numbers. See first sentence of the New Comment.
Jim Eshelman wrote:The flip of the numbers gives the loop which then (off-diagram) causes the zodiac flip to be perfectly symmetrical.

By this quote I understand that you know about The double loop in Zodiac – Marseille's/Crowley's Thoth Tarot Trump numbers. See the second sentence of the New Comment.

So can you draw a diagram with Trump IV The Emperor Tzaddi Aries, Trump XVII The Star He Aquarius "which then (off-diagram) causes the zodiac flip to be perfectly symmetrical."? Please do if you write about it. How do you make with these attributions a perfectly symmetrical zodiac - trump numbers. I get only non symmetrical see my pic 2 - single loop in the zodiac-trump numbers. I would be happy to see how you do it. :D
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:06 am

Modest wrote:So can you draw a diagram with Trump IV The Emperor Tzaddi Aries, Trump XVII The Star He Aquarius "which then (off-diagram) causes the zodiac flip to be perfectly symmetrical."? Please do if you write about it. How do you make with these attributions a perfectly symmetrical zodiac - trump numbers. I get only non symmetrical see my pic 2 - single loop in the zodiac-trump numbers. I would be happy to see how you do it. :D

Already answered:

Jim Eshelman wrote:No. See above. The loop is done by plotting the Hebrew letters and the Tarot card numbers. You're confusing yourself by introducing the zodiac to it.

By "off-diagram" I literally mean that the zodiac issue is not on the diagram. It's a consequence of what IS in the diagram but is, itself, not on the diagram.

Draw the loop like on the bottom of page 11 of The Book of Thoth (essentially a long horizontal oval with a loop at each end). Starting at the bottom of the left loop (bottom of the circle on the left end), and following the cross-over line of the loop, write the Hebrew simple letters in order: Heh (bottom of left), Vav, Zayin, Cheth (arching across the top), Teth (bottom of the right circle), Yod (right side of right circle), Lamed (top of right circle), Nun, Samekh, A'ayin (acros the bottom edge), Tzaddi (top of left circle), Qoph (left side of left circle).

Next, starting in the same place and goiung around the outside of this, not looping but circling the outside of the whole thing, put the Trump numbers: 4, 6, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11,13, 14, 15, 17, 18.

This matches up the following of Trump number vs. zodiac:

4 - Tzaddi
5 - Vav
6 - Zayin
7 - Cheth
8 - Lamed
9 - Yod
11 - Teth
13 - Nun
14 - Samekh
15 - A'ayin
17 - Heh
18 - Qoph

There is no need to screw with the zodiacal attributions to the cards, ony with the way that the cards (reflected in their numbers) correspond to the Hebrew letters. (The astrological attributions are off-diagram - this loop diagram has nothing to do with them.) Your wish for a zodiacal-number flip is exactly what I've said from the beginning isn't here. It's a trump number - Hebrew letter flip.

The result is that Aries (Trump 4, The Emperor) and Aquarius (Trump 17, The Star) loop around to highlight Pisces (Trump 18,The Moon), just as Libra (Trump 8, Adjustment) and Leo (Trump 11, Lust) loop around to highlight Virgo (Trump 9, The Hermit). Since this was conceived about the time the equinoctial points had reached the centers of Pisces and Virgo, I find it fascinating that this highlights a Pisces-Virgo horizontal axis and places Gemini at the highest declination and Samekh at the lowest - which was astronomically correct.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Jim Eshelman » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:39 am

Rather than starting in the middle, let's roll this back to the poiont where a problem was detected. It makes this looping less loopy.

The Golden Dawn received tradition, which both Crowley and Waite learned (and Case encountered when he joined the A&O after his initial Tarot investigations and writings) attributed the 12 zodiacal signs and their Tarot cards to the 12 Hebrew simple lettes as follows:

4 Emperor, Aries: Heh
5 Hierophant, Taurus: Vav
6 Lovers, Gemini: Zayin
7 Chariot, Cancer: Cheth
8 Justice, Libra: Lamed
9 Hermit, Virgo: Yod
11 Strength, Leo: Teth
13 Death, Scorpio: Nun
14 Temperance, Sagittarius: Samekh
15 Devil, Capricorn: A'ayin
17 Star, Aquarius: Tzaddi
18 Moon, Pisces: Qoph

Mostly it's a nice, orderly, consistent pattern - you could draw it on a circle and everything would line up right except - WAIT, OOPS - there's something wrong here: 8 and 11 are out of sequence.

Waite and Case resolved this by concluding that the number assignments to 8 and 11 were wrong. They each swapped these. To them: Problem solved.

But Crowley, having been told by Aiwass that Tzaddi is not The Star, approached the problem differently. Starting from the above list, he eventually uncovered that the seeming 8/11 problem was really not a problem at all - it was the solution! And that, with Leo and Libra card numbers seemingly screwed up against the whole pattern, and the problem before him to solve was the Aquarius card... the solution was that Aquarius and Aries were behaving just like Leo and Libra! This was symmetrical. And to bring it into alignment, since it was the Hebrew letter attribution of The Star that was being challenged, the solution was to swap the Hebrew letter assignments of those two cards, resulting in this table:

4 Emperor, Aries: Tzaddi
5 Hierophant, Taurus: Vav
6 Lovers, Gemini: Zayin
7 Chariot, Cancer: Cheth
8 Justice, Libra: Lamed
9 Hermit, Virgo: Yod
11 Strength, Leo: Teth
13 Death, Scorpio: Nun
14 Temperance, Sagittarius: Samekh
15 Devil, Capricorn: A'ayin
17 Star, Aquarius: Heh
18 Moon, Pisces: Qoph

No other change was needed. Many long-standing collateral problems were resolved by this one change. Putting it in Hebrew letter order, we get:

17 Star, Aquarius: Heh
5 Hierophant, Taurus: Vav
6 Lovers, Gemini: Zayin
7 Chariot, Cancer: Cheth
11 Strength, Leo: Teth
9 Hermit, Virgo: Yod
8 Justice, Libra: Lamed
13 Death, Scorpio: Nun
14 Temperance, Sagittarius: Samekh
15 Devil, Capricorn: A'ayin
4 Emperor, Aries: Tzaddi
18 Moon, Pisces: Qoph

What is flipped (when the Hebrew letters are set in motion) are the numbers assigned to two pairs of cards. Therefore, it is the numbers against the letters that resolve the whole puzzle. The card names and zodiacal signs simply ride along with the trump numbers, which serve as the sequencing key.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Heru » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:23 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:What is flipped (when the Hebrew letters are set in motion) are the numbers assigned to two pairs of cards. Therefore, it is the numbers against the letters that resolve the whole puzzle. The card names and zodiacal signs simply ride along with the trump numbers, which serve as the sequencing key.

So how is the double loop in the zodiac formed? In both of the lists you give there is only one loop in the zodiac. If you use the Hebrew alphabet as your sequencing key then Aquarius and Aries are looped but Leo and Libra are in their natural zodiac order. Likewise if you use the Tarot numeral sequence then Aries and Aquarius are in their usual zodiac order but Leo and Libra are flipped. So how did Crowley manage to get two loops in the zodiac at the same time?

Hebrew Alphabet sequence.

17 Star, Aquarius: Heh [Aquarius out of sequence]
5 Hierophant, Taurus: Vav
6 Lovers, Gemini: Zayin
7 Chariot, Cancer: Cheth
11 Strength, Leo: Teth [Leo in normal zodiac position]
9 Hermit, Virgo: Yod
8 Justice, Libra: Lamed [Libra in normal zodiac position]
13 Death, Scorpio: Nun
14 Temperance, Sagittarius: Samekh
15 Devil, Capricorn: A'ayin
4 Emperor, Aries: Tzaddi [Aries out of sequence]
18 Moon, Pisces: Qoph

Roman Numeral sequence.

4 Emperor, Aries: Tzaddi [Aries in normal zodiac position]
5 Hierophant, Taurus: Vav
6 Lovers, Gemini: Zayin
7 Chariot, Cancer: Cheth
8 Justice, Libra: Lamed [Libra out of sequence]
9 Hermit, Virgo: Yod
11 Strength, Leo: Teth [Leo out of sequence]
13 Death, Scorpio: Nun
14 Temperance, Sagittarius: Samekh
15 Devil, Capricorn: A'ayin
17 Star, Aquarius: Heh [Aquarius in normal zodiac position]
18 Moon, Pisces: Qoph
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Modest » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:03 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:This matches up the following of Trump number vs. zodiac:
4 - Tzaddi
5 - Vav
6 - Zayin
7 - Cheth
8 - Lamed
9 - Yod
11 - Teth
13 - Nun
14 - Samekh
15 - A'ayin
17 - Heh
18 - Qoph

The result is that Aries (Trump 4, The Emperor) and Aquarius (Trump 17, The Star) loop around to highlight Pisces (Trump 18,The Moon), just as Libra (Trump 8, Adjustment) and Leo (Trump 11, Lust) loop around to highlight Virgo (Trump 9, The Hermit). Since this was conceived about the time the equinoctial points had reached the centers of Pisces and Virgo, I find it fascinating that this highlights a Pisces-Virgo horizontal axis and places Gemini at the highest declination and Samekh at the lowest - which was astronomically correct.

Here's the picture in accord with your instructions:
Image
Your diagram doesn't meet the requirements set in Book of Thoth:
Book of Thoth page 11 wrote:that is to say, the correction in the Book of the Law gives a perfect symmetry in the zodiacal attribution, just as if a loop were formed at one end of the ellipse to correspond exactly with the existing loop at the other end.

You form the zodiac loops but they don't correspond to each other so there is no perfect symmetry in the zodiacal attribution.
Okay, I have drawn the diagram your way, now you draw the diagram Crowley's Book of Thoth way:
1. Make a double loop in the zodiac as in Book of Thoth diagram 11 or your own diagram.
2. Next, starting at Aquarius, next Taurus... and going around the outside of this, not looping but circling the outside of the whole thing, put the Trump numbers: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11,13, 14, 15, 17, 18.
3. Image
Image
This meets the requirements set in Book of Thoth:
Book of Thoth page 11 wrote:that is to say, the correction in the Book of the Law gives a perfect symmetry in the zodiacal attribution, just as if a loop were formed at one end of the ellipse to correspond exactly with the existing loop at the other end.


Jim Eshelman wrote:Rather than starting in the middle, let's roll this back to the poiont where a problem was detected. It makes this looping less loopy.

Okay.
Jim Eshelman wrote:Waite and Case resolved this by concluding that the number assignments to 8 and 11 were wrong. They each swapped these. To them: Problem solved.

Don't forget to mention that in doing so they didn't brake the vital Sepher Yetzirah zodiac-hebrew letter attributions to the Tarot.
Jim Eshelman wrote:But Crowley, having been told by Aiwass that Tzaddi is not The Star, approached the problem differently. Starting from the above list, he eventually uncovered that the seeming 8/11 problem was really not a problem at all - it was the solution! And that, with Leo and Libra card numbers seemingly screwed up against the whole pattern, and the problem before him to solve was the Aquarius card... the solution was that Aquarius and Aries were behaving just like Leo and Libra! This was symmetrical.

See commented at the beggining of my post. But I quote Crowley again:
Book of Thoth page 10-11
"He tried for years to counter-change this card, "The Star", which is numbered XVII, with some other."
Crowley tried to counterchange the trumps - NOT the hebrew letters or ANYTHING else.
"Tzaddi is "The Emperor"; and therefore the positions of XVII and IV must be counterchanged."
Crowley counterchanged the trumps XVII and IV - NOT the hebrew letters or ANYTHING else.
Image
But it is the same as:
Image
Image
"that is to say, the correction in the Book of the Law gives a perfect symmetry in the zodiacal attribution, just as if a loop were formed at one end of the ellipse to correspond exactly with the existing loop at the other end."
The double loop in the zodiac. In doing so he didn't brake the Sepher Yetzirah zodiac-hebrew letter attributions as well as Waite and Case.
Jim Eshelman wrote:And to bring it into alignment, since it was the Hebrew letter attribution of The Star that was being challenged, the solution was to swap the Hebrew letter assignments of those two cards, resulting in this table:

And why do you think that Crowley would brake the vital Sepher Yetzirah zodiac-hebrew letter attributions to the Tarot when Case and Waite wouldn't? Couldn't it be that you are wrong? :)
Jim Eshelman wrote:The card names and zodiacal signs simply ride along with the trump numbers, which serve as the sequencing key.

The zodiacal signs rode always all along hebrew letters as the attributions came from Sepher Yetzirah. They never were attributed to trump numbers directly but as a hebrew letter-zodiac pack so how can they ride them? But oh, you say Sepher Yetzirah is a blind. :)
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Modest » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:30 am

Heru wrote:So how is the double loop in the zodiac formed?

Hi, Heru, if you haven't read Jim says there is no double loop in the zodiac-Trump number.
Jim Eshelman wrote:Your wish for a zodiacal-number flip is exactly what I've said from the beginning isn't here. It's a trump number - Hebrew letter flip.

He thinks the zodiac-trump number loops form his own deduced way (See his last two posts). :) But this quote proves, I believe, how to do the double loop in the zodiac and it is not the way Jim does it:
Book of Thoth page 11 wrote:that is to say, the correction in the Book of the Law gives a perfect symmetry in the zodiacal attribution, just as if a loop were formed at one end of the ellipse to correspond exactly with the existing loop at the other end.

1. Make a double loop in the zodiac as in Book of Thoth diagram 11 or your own diagram.
2. Next, starting at Aquarius, next Taurus... and going around the outside of this, not looping but circling the outside of the whole thing, put the Trump numbers: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11,13, 14, 15, 17, 18.
Image

This is my conclusion, if you want to read Jim's and how he forms the loops read his last two posts.

Oh, and you can do THE SAME thing but this time by looping the Trump numbers in accord with other citations:
Book of Thoth page 10-11 wrote:"He tried for years to counter-change this card, "The Star", which is numbered XVII, with some other.""Tzaddi is "The Emperor"; and therefore the positions of XVII and IV must be counterchanged."

Image
And you don't have to brake the Sepher Yetzirah hebrew letter-zodiac attributions.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Heru » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:00 am

Modest wrote:He thinks the zodiac-trump number loops form his own deduced way (See his last two posts).

I've followed Jim's diagram drawing instructions to the letter. I came up with the same result you did here.
Image

Obviously it does not match the one in the Book of Thoth. :?
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:07 am

Actually, Jim's method matches both the diagram and the text of the Book of Thoth.

The diagram that looks exactly like Jim's, and the ones you two made, is labelled "The Double Loop in the Zodiac"

The text also makes it very clear that the Emperor is Aries.

The card which must be exchanged for "The Star" is "The Emperor", who bears the number IV, which signifies Power, Authority, Law, and is attributed to the sign Aries. This proves very satisfactory. But it became infinitely more so as soon as it was seen that this substitution cleared up the other mystery about Strength and Justice.


The only way around this is to simultaneously cite the Book of Thoth, and insist that both the text and the diagram are blinds. :booze:

The answer is much simpler: "The Double Loop in the Zodiac" means what matches the diagram and the text, not what you've decided it must mean.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Heru » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:45 am

Avshalom Binyamin wrote:The diagram that looks exactly like Jim's, and the ones you two made, is labelled "The Double Loop in the Zodiac"

With all due respect I think you need to take another look at the diagram and closely compare it to the one printed in the Book of Thoth. This time ignore the left hand loop. Do you see the glaring disparity?
Avshalom Binyamin wrote:The answer is much simpler: "The Double Loop in the Zodiac" means what matches the diagram and the text, not what you've decided it must mean.

Actually I haven't decided it must mean anything. I've simply followed the step-by-step procedure outlined by Jim (3 times) and come up with something that does not match the diagram printed in the Book of Thoth. The only part that does match up is the left hand loop. Everything else is inverted.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Avshalom Binyamin » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:13 am

Yes, you're right, my mistake... the diagrams do not look exactly the same. Except for the left hand loop, Crowley's goes counter-clockwise, and Jim's instructions go clockwise.

Crowley's was done by mapping the Zodiac to the double loop, and then assigning Trump numbers. Jim's is done by mapping Hebrew letters to the double loop, and then assigning Trump numbers. So, visually, they don't match up.

However, in terms of attributions they are harmonious. Crowley's diagram does not have the Hebrew letters assigned, but has Aries as the Emperor, and Aquarius as the Star. To match Crowley's diagram, either you assign Tzaddi to Aquarius and the Star, or you assign it to Aries and the Emperor. Based on the text, and the Liber Al quote, obviously Tzaddi is the Emperor and Aries.

Modest's solution does not match the attributions in Crowley's diagram, or the text.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Wizardiaoan » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:43 am

http://www.bib-arch.org/bar/article.asp ... =06&Page=0
(BAR March/April 2010)

Besides being a good essay on the origins of the Hebrew script, there is some subtle proof that Heh should be attributed to Aries as "the emperor" here, since the hieroglyph they took to represent Heh symbolized a person giving orders. It likely meant something akin to "foreman," but this can't be used since the supposition is that they were illiterate of the hieroglyph's real meaning.

By contrast, Tzaddi may have its origins with the papyrus plant glyph, the emblem of Lower Egypt, which grows near the water. This does not seem linked to Aries to me.

http://www.bib-arch.org/scholars-study/ ... buttal.asp

Edit: The article didn't link in full, sry.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby VRST » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:46 pm

Let's not forget Crowley's sense of humour. The question I posed a couple of pages (and years) back, "Has Crowley poured the castor oil of confusion into the tea-urn of the Tarot?" alluded to the trick he played as a boy on the visiting Plymouth Brethren, where the meek guests were too timid to complain about the tea's awful taste. There were numerous other wicked pranks and cunning stunts, such as: the complaint to the Vigilance Society about the conspicuous evidence of prostitution in Foyers (conspicuous by its absence, you fools!); authorship of Alexandria: A Birthday Ode by Ophelia Cox; the hunting of the haggis at Boleskine; the acrostic in Hail Mary, which spelt out The Virgin Mary I Desire But Arseholes Set My Prick On Fire; the lesbian poetry of Amphora which was unwittingly put out by a Catholic publisher; the abstraction of the brass butterfly covering the genitalia of Epstein's statue on Wilde's grave; his faked suicide in Portugal, and no doubt many another jape.

Crowley says he spent "nearly twenty years" trying to solve the riddle of I:57, which indicates the solution came before April 1924. His diaries leading up to this date show his increasingly dismal view of the work of Charles Stansfeld Jones, who he facetiously refers to on 23 May 1923 as "Jesus Stansfeld Christ", and "the Great One, the Illuminated One", and of whom he seeks an oracle, asking "What shall be my attitude to Achad; is any open action on my part necessary (either directly or through Alostrael or O.P.V.)and if so, what?"

30 May sees possibly the first manifestation of the 4/17 switch, where Crowley is adding together the numbers of various pairs of Trumps, seeking to reach XXXI. He refers to XVII plus XIV (= XXXI) as "SH" or "HS", which indicates he has attributed XVII, The Star to He rather than the traditional Tzaddi.

On 24 July Crowley formulated a plan to "deal with" Jones, that his position as Magister Templi needed to be challenged in the occult publications of the time.

9 August sees Crowley's first acknowledgement of "absurd new attribution proposed for the Paths", and he again sought an oracle.

The "absurd new attribution proposed for the Paths" refers to Jones' book QBL. In the appendix to this book, Jones partly outlines his reversed Paths for the Tree of Life. To illustrate, in the Golden Dawn system, Path 11 (between Kether and Chokmah, refers to 0, The Fool, whereas in Jones' system it refers to XXI, The Universe. Path 12 is similarly I, The Magician, against Jones' Last Judgement. Path 13 is II, The Priestess against XIX, The Sun. Path 14 is III, The Empress against XVIII, The Moon.

Now for the interesting bit. Path 15, in the Golden Dawn, is IV, The Emperor, but in Jones' revised attributions it is XVII, The Star. Similarly, Path 28 in the Golden Dawn is The Star, but Jones' world it is The Emperor.

This is interesting because, given that Crowley rejects Jones' proposed new paths as "absurd", he is at the same time adopting one of Jones' attributions by swapping The Star and The Emperor!

In Book 4, Crowley states "One who ought to have known better tried to improve the Tree of Life by turning the Serpent of Wisdom upside down! Yet he could not even make his scheme symmetrical; his little remaining good sense revolted at the supreme attrocities. Yet he succeeded in reducing the whole Magical Alphabet to nonsense, and shewing that he had never understood its real meaning. The absurdity of any such disturbance of the arrangement of the Paths is evident to any sober student from such examples as the following. Binah, the Supernal Understanding, is connected with Tiphareth, the Human Consciousness, by Zain, Gemini, the Oracles of the Gods, or the Intuition. That is, the attribution represents a psychological fact: to replace it by "The Devil" is either humour or plain idiocy. Again, the card "Fortitude", Leo, balances Majesty and Mercy with Strength and Severity: what sense is there in putting "Death", the Scorpion, in its stead? There are twenty other mistakes in the new wonderful illumined-from-on-high attribution; the student can therefore be sure of twenty more laughs if he cares to study it."

The point is, if there are twenty more laughs, this would necessarily include Crowley's own 4/17 swap!

On 4 September Crowley reports he has "worked hard on Atus, etc getting a very complete simplified classification of the images". The results are seen on 7 September; however, he seems to waver -the letter E (He) as listed as XVII or IV

Sometime after May 1923, Norman Mudd took down "Dictation and Discussion" from Crowley. Here Crowley unambiguously adopts the 4/17 change: "Tiphareth gets from Chokmah by path of He, feminine Nuit-Star corresponds to sign of Aquarius, the water bearer. Aquarius is an airy sign, the Kerub of Man. Hence its relation to humanitarianism. How does the True Will convey its orders to the consciousness? By Aquarius and no other."

But at the same time, he seems to baulk at the idea: "How does Netzach affect Hod influence Yesod? Through Tzaddi - Emperor - Aries, i.e. the wish phantasm imposes itself on the image through the illusion of divine right. It is very arbitrary."

Crowley left Tunis 3 October 1923 and by this time, or perhaps a little later, the concept of 4/17 was in place. Yet he refrained from instructing his followers to make any corresponding alterations, and made no changes to the unpublished 777 Revised. The Heart of the Master, written from late 1924 to early 1925 makes no mention of it.

The first allusion is in in Magick in Theory and Practice, where there is a description of the letter H in the word ALHIM: "And then, in the centre of all, broods Spirit, which combines the mildness of the Lamb with the horns of the Ram, and is the letter of Bacchus or "Christ."

There is a note: "The letter He is the formula of Nuit, which makes possible the process described in the previous notes. But it is not permissible here to explain fully the exact matter or manner of this adjustment. I have preferred the exoteric attributions, which are sufficiently informative for the beginner."

I contend that the reason Crowley refers to 4/17 but refrains from explaining it is because it would only raise more questions, as evidenced by this very forum all these years later where, with all due respect, it remains a mystery.

The Equinox of the Gods makes no mention of any change in the Tarot attributions; however, there are several passages in the last eight pages of Chapter VII where he goes into some detail as to the standard of scriptural interpretation, or exegesis, that he intends to adopt with regard to The Book of the Law. Inasmuch as the reasoning behind 4/17 involves exegesis, these passages serve as a preliminary to understanding Crowley's approach to interpreting I:57.

In these eight pages Crowley makes several references to the occurrence of the word "not" in Liber Al, but any discussion of I:57 is conspicuous - by its absence!

In May 1938 Lady Frieda Harris became a student of Crowley's. Quite early in the piece she had this to say regarding the mystery of Tzaddi:

"Dear Aleister....Also, I don't feel you have made it clear about Tzaddi - the Emperor. Can't you have a diagram? I have been reading your book to Ann Christie in the evenings and although she is very interested, she could not understand your book, and I'm not sure I did in the end. It will be a point about which there will be the most argument. Is there any reason for the two loops except secrecy? Surely! And if not, why not undo the loop, and is the Emperor to be numbered 17 or 4 or 17 or IV, ditto the Star, also Strength XI and Justice VIII. I expect I have got it all wrong, but if I have you must make it clearer....I think we could have 4 and 17 on a swivel to twist round. Quite amusing also the Sun could have the Zodiac pushed round."

Incidentally, it appears Lady Harris drew the famous diagram in the Book of Thoth, for she states in a later letter: "I have a diagram of the Twist in the Zodiac. Would you like me to make a conventional diagram of your rough?" To which Crowley responded "Yes, please, make a conventional diagram."

Eight Lectures on Yoga, 1939, carries a Tree of Life diagram which shows - unsupported by any explanatory text - Aquarius on the 15th Path and Aries on the 28th. There is a passage in the lecture on Yama that may well refer to the issue at hand: "But now let me begin to unleash my indignation. My job - the establishment of the Law of Thelema - is a most discouraging job. It is the rarest thing to find anyone who has any ideas at all on the subject of liberty. Because the Law of Thelema is the law of liberty, everybody's particular hair stands on end like the quills of the fretful porpentine; they scream like an uprooted mandrake, and flee in terror from the accursed spot. Because: the exercise of liberty means that you have to think for yourself, and the natural inertia of mankind wants religion and ethics ready-made. However ridiculous or shameful a theory or practice is, they would rather comply than examine it. Sometimes it is hook-swinging or Sati; sometimes consubstantiation or supra-lapsarianism; they do not mind what they are brought up in, as long as they are well brought up. They do not want to be bothered about it."

In 1942 the Harris paintings were exhibited with an accompanying booklet. Curiously, Crowley refers to "the perpetration of a hoax transparent and nausient" in connection with the exhibition in the self-authored "An Open Letter to Aleister Crowley from the Society of Hidden Masters."

Crowley's replied to himself, to "most strenuously deny participation in the hoax."

If you are still reading this, open up your Book of Thoth and re-examine it in light of the foregoing. There is too much to mention here and it's getting on for dawn. However, I will bring your attention to the following passage (bearing in mind Crowley's view that he was the reincarnation of Eliphas Lev):.

"In the middle of the nineteenth century there arose a very great Qabalist and scholar, who still annoys dull people by his habit of diverting himself at their expense by making fools of them posthumously....Eliphas Levi was a philosopher and an artist, besides being a supreme literary stylist and a practical joker of the variety called "Pince sans rire"...."

In the Law is For All, 1946, Crowley continues, poker-faced to the end: "I see no harm in revealing the mystery of Tzaddi to "the wise"; others will hardly understand my explanations..."

In conclusion, I would contend the "Double Loop in the Zodiac" is Crowley's last laugh -- a blind, as my previous post stated. It is somewhat similar to Andersen's The Emperor's New Clothes -- non-existent clothing which the Emperor wore in order that he might distinguish the wise from the foolish.

Let the indignation begin!
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Iamus » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:20 pm

Why do people think that showing that someone's motivation for making a proposition is a disproof of the proposition itself? If the Heh-Tzaddi interchange is a joke, then the joke's on Crowley. It's like if someone discovered a diary entry in which Joyce admitted that Finnegan's Wake was an elaborate prank, it wouldn't detract a bit from the value of the work.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby christinespandex » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:06 pm

This was really interesting guys, thanks for sharing!
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Starry Soul » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:02 am

Uh, no. Aries is The Emperor, Aquarius is the Star.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Jim Eshelman » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:13 pm

The Tarot cards are linked to the astrological attributions, among other factors. It's all sorted out in 776 1/2, if that helps.
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Re: Tzaddi is not the Star

Postby Modest » Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:23 pm

Avshalom Binyamin wrote: Modest's solution does not match the attributions in Crowley's diagram, or the text.


Well if you look at Crowley's diagram and read the Tarot number - zodiac atributtions on the loop you see that the text and the loop do not correspond/match each other - Crowley's diagram is broken. If you follow the text data of the picture a single Leo/Libra loop is formed!
No double loop is formed because the tarot number sequience is mixed up.

Image

That is why I posted a corrected picture where a double loop in the Zodiac IS formed:

Image
Can you see now? The double loop is the zodiac and the circle is the tarot numbers in increasing order.

Of course there is Jim who tells us that it's not about the double loop in the zodiac but in letter - tarot number attributions. But from the picture in the book we clearly see "Diagram The Double Loop in the Zodiac".
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