G.'.D.'. and A.'.A.'. maps test ride report

[Hermes]

"the map is not the territory"

Basically i've been working and meditating on both systems/from both systems point of vue for about the same amount of time and it seems my "real" initiation is globally something between both maps.

I feel there is only one (real)G.'.D.'., one (real)4=7, and so on.

I see the work, timing and intensity attributed to sephiroth and worlds differently from both systems.

I see it like this:

Philosophus=Assiah, master of science
D.L=Yetzirah, master of art
Adept=Briah, master of magick
Magister=Atziluth, master of yoga

What do you think?

[Starry Soul]

I don't get what you mean by "one real G.D.," "one real 4=7," nor why you would mix two things that are measured differently into a third unrelated thing.

[Jim Eshelman]

I feel there is only one (real)G.'.D.'., one (real)4=7, and so on.

I see why it might be important to you to adopt this point of view. However, I don't see how you can sustain this point of view with neglecting or minimalizing certain facts.

Both the G.D. system and the A.'.A.'. system have a grade called Philosophus, bearing the designation 4=7, which mark a specific phase in each of the respective systems, but which are not equal to each other. (A Philosphus of G.D. is not even doing the work of an A.'.A.'. 1=10.)

Yes, you can look back on the G.D. 4=7 and understand something deeper about it from the perspective of an A.'.A.'. 4=7; but that isn't the point of view of someone actually moving up through the G.D. 4=7. It's more like a G.D. 7=4 looking back, with deeper understanding, on their 4=7.

[Hermes]

I don't get what you mean by "one real G.D.," "one real 4=7," nor why you would mix two things that are measured differently into a third unrelated thing.

The "real" G.'.D.'. is what Crowley tried to emulate at his best with his A.'.A.'. system(concerning grades up to Dominus Liminis). That's it. It is the real and actual attainment on the tree of life regardless of any dogma(except kabbalah).

From this i imply Crowley did right associating Tiphareth with Briah but not necessarly concerning Yesod with Yetzirah, at least in such a system where we use a "dominus liminis" grade.

[Jim Eshelman]

I don't get what you mean by "one real G.D.," "one real 4=7," nor why you would mix two things that are measured differently into a third unrelated thing.

The "real" G.'.D.'. is what Crowley tried to emulate at his best with his A.'.A.'. system(concerning grades up to Dominus Liminis). That's it. It is the real and actual attainment on the tree of life regardless of any dogma(except kabbalah).

Well, OK, then you are simply dismissing the other Order altogether. To me that seems narrow.

It was never intended to be what the A.'.A.'. is. It's First Order is entirely in Assiah. (Drilling Yetzirah, preparing for Yetzirah, but not yet awake and functioning in Yetzirah.) This contrasts sharply with A.'.A.'..

From this i imply Crowley did right associating Tiphareth with Briah but not necessarly concerning Yesod with Yetzirah, at least in such a system where we use a "dominus liminis" grade.

If you are speaking of A.'.A.'., the task of the Neophyte ensures - absolutely guarantees - that the 2=9 is awake and functioning in Yetzirah - since the actual task to get there is to be awake and functioning in Yetzirah.

[Starry Soul]

From this i imply Crowley did right associating Tiphareth with Briah but not necessarly concerning Yesod with Yetzirah, at least in such a system where we use a "dominus liminis" grade.

The point is: why not? As in, why do you think so?

[Hermes]

I feel there is only one (real)G.'.D.'., one (real)4=7, and so on.

I see why it might be important to you to adopt this point of view. However, I don't see how you can sustain this point of view with neglecting or minimalizing certain facts.

Both the G.D. system and the A.'.A.'. system have a grade called Philosophus, bearing the designation 4=7, which mark a specific phase in each of the respective systems, but which are not equal to each other. (A Philosphus of G.D. is not even doing the work of an A.'.A.'. 1=10.)

Yes, you can look back on the G.D. 4=7 and understand something deeper about it from the perspective of an A.'.A.'. 4=7; but that isn't the point of view of someone actually moving up through the G.D. 4=7. It's more like a G.D. 7=4 looking back, with deeper understanding, on their 4=7.

I think the problem is the respective ways the four worlds are put into one tree...

Crowley got the picture more accurate but it cant be as accurate as one's own spontaneous ake up, that's what i mean.

[Hermes]

I don't get what you mean by "one real G.D.," "one real 4=7," nor why you would mix two things that are measured differently into a third unrelated thing.

The "real" G.'.D.'. is what Crowley tried to emulate at his best with his A.'.A.'. system(concerning grades up to Dominus Liminis). That's it. It is the real and actual attainment on the tree of life regardless of any dogma(except kabbalah).

Well, OK, then you are simply dismissing the other Order altogether. To me that seems narrow.

It was never intended to be what the A.'.A.'. is. It's First Order is entirely in Assiah. (Drilling Yetzirah, preparing for Yetzirah, but not yet awake and functioning in Yetzirah.) This contrasts sharply with A.'.A.'..

From this i imply Crowley did right associating Tiphareth with Briah but not necessarly concerning Yesod with Yetzirah, at least in such a system where we use a "dominus liminis" grade.

If you are speaking of A.'.A.'., the task of the Neophyte ensures - absolutely guarantees - that the 2=9 is awake and functioning in Yetzirah - since the actual task to get there is to be awake and functioning in Yetzirah.

Ok, i get i might have dismissed the actual goal of G.'.D.'. phrasing the way i did. It was not the intent. The thing is, though, Crwoley do call the first order of A.'.A.'. "G.'.D.'."... and both share many things as the signs of the grades...

If i'm in full astral projection, have fulfill the ordeals and do the philosophus sign, what the difference does it make i'm affiliated with G.'.D.'., A.'.A.'., or no lineage?

Sorry if i'm not clear, it is not clear for me neither. I dont know what is trying to express itself but something is trying...

[Hermes]

From this i imply Crowley did right associating Tiphareth with Briah but not necessarly concerning Yesod with Yetzirah, at least in such a system where we use a "dominus liminis" grade.

The point is: why not? As in, why do you think so?

Because it feels more natural and logic having the four base sephiroth as a gradual exposure to Yetzirah and then Dominus Liminis as the full activation.

It's like Crowley went to the opposite extreme of Mathers system while reformulating it.

[Starry Soul]

Because it feels more natural and logic having the four base sephiroth as a gradual exposure to Yetzirah and then Dominus Liminis as the full activation.

That mapping would be all off. Dominus Liminis in A.'.A.'. activates Briah. If not, you'd have to do all the Yetziratic work plus awakening of Briah in a single Grade that isn't even Sephirah-based! If you wished to extend the Yetziratic work into more Grades, you'd just have a version of the original G.D.

What's the point of having four Grades in Assiah with almost no work and then a pseudo-Grade with ALL the work before Knowledge and Conversation? It doesn't seem natural and logic at all. Malkuth is the sphere of the elements, just as the four lower Sephiroth stand for the elements; you don't need four full Grades in Assiah to get exposed to Yetzirah and you don't need to waste three powerful symbols with stand-in landmarks. (IMO)

[Jim Eshelman]

I think the problem is the respective ways the four worlds are put into one tree...

Crowley got the picture more accurate but it cant be as accurate as one's own spontaneous ake up, that's what i mean.

I absolutely agree that this is the correct model for A.'.A.'..

I disagree that there is only a single way to do it. The entire Tree exists in all four worlds - not some sephiroth only in one world, and others in another. You can describe the entire Tree in just one world - all in Atziluth, for example, or (as I think SRIA would fit) all in Assiah. Or you can draw the dividing lines in different places. How you draw them determines the nature of the particular system. Different maps can be followed, and they describe different terrains.

One can be a high school sophomore and someone else (or the same person at a different time) can be a college sophomore. The fact that both frameworks have the same four names for the same four stages (freshman, sophomore, junior, senior) doesn't mean that they are identical; nor does it mean that one is better than the other. (Nor does either one of those address a given student's aptitude for particular subjects or their ability to read.)

[Hermes]

Because it feels more natural and logic having the four base sephiroth as a gradual exposure to Yetzirah and then Dominus Liminis as the full activation.

That mapping would be all off. Dominus Liminis in A.'.A.'. activates Briah. If not, you'd have to do all the Yetziratic work plus awakening of Briah in a single Grade that isn't even Sephirah-based! If you wished to extend the Yetziratic work into more Grades, you'd just have a version of the original G.D.

What's the point of having four Grades in Assiah with almost no work and then a pseudo-Grade with ALL the work before Knowledge and Conversation? It doesn't seem natural and logic at all. Malkuth is the sphere of the elements, just as the four lower Sephiroth stand for the elements; you don't need four full Grades in Assiah to get exposed to Yetzirah and you don't need to waste three powerful symbols with stand-in landmarks. (IMO)

The thing is bridging to Yetzirah and then to Briah is not an on/off kind of thing. I'm sure most of the guys who do what i did (working both systems) have similar results. Also most of them would have had previous experiences with related stuff. It's probably an exception having a total noob who wakes up one morning and start working the stuff that way. It doesnt come in a night.

So by the time you're say a Practicus, even though supposed in Assiah, there are good chances Yetzirah is activated to a good extent. Briah to some extent also. You see? Also the increase of difficulty is supposed to be exponential. Thus it seems logic. For instance it could take 3 years to get to Philosophus(while haveing had previous experiences in related stuff and maybe a good level in a science and an art ) and then 2 more years to D.L, then 3 more to Adepthod, then 5 to Major, 5 again to Exemptus...

Also, notice in A.'.A.'. astral vision is still tested for D.L in the form of "rising on the planes". That can be seen as the actual "mastery of the astral plane" supposed to happen in Neophytus in the form of the prescribed test.

[Hermes]

I think the problem is the respective ways the four worlds are put into one tree...

Crowley got the picture more accurate but it cant be as accurate as one's own spontaneous ake up, that's what i mean.

I absolutely agree that this is the correct model for A.'.A.'..

I disagree that there is only a single way to do it. The entire Tree exists in all four worlds - not some sephiroth only in one world, and others in another. You can describe the entire Tree in just one world - all in Atziluth, for example, or (as I think SRIA would fit) all in Assiah. Or you can draw the dividing lines in different places. How you draw them determines the nature of the particular system. Different maps can be followed, and they describe different terrains.

One can be a high school sophomore and someone else (or the same person at a different time) can be a college sophomore. The fact that both frameworks have the same four names for the same four stages (freshman, sophomore, junior, senior) doesn't mean that they are identical; nor does it mean that one is better than the other. (Nor does either one of those address a given student's aptitude for particular subjects or their ability to read.)

Thanks, very clear !

What could be said concerning the "map" i suggest? Is it natural it feels "more real" than the two traditional ones i actually base my work on? It feels like it is my HGA who tells me it is that way for me.

Or could it be Choronzon trying to plant early seeds of black brotherhood so that when i get Exempt i suddently feel a urge to create a black order where people bridge to Yetzirah as Philosophi and then dive straight into the abyss and are damned for ever and ever? Amen

[Jim Eshelman]

So by the time you're say a Practicus, even though supposed in Assiah, there are good chances Yetzirah is activated to a good extent.

By the time you're a Practicus in A.'.A.'., you are two grades past the point where you have actively begun working this, and at least one grade past the point where you're stable in it.

On the other hand, as you correctly infer, by the time you're a Practicus in G.D., there has been no training or assigned practice in astral work, but there likely has been a tendency for some of this stuff to come awake. (The entire First Order is worked in Assiah, which - to say it another way - means that the entire First Order is a gradual coming awake in Yetzirah (and then applying that in standard practices within the Second Order.) In the G.D. framework, that's the real division between First and Second Order: Working in Assiah vs. working in Yetzirah.

In the classic system, even information such as officer God-forms is withheld until Second Order. IIRC the only thing given anywhere in the First Order that constitutes astral stuff would be the visualizations in the Pentagram Ritual.

Briah to some extent also.

Highly unlikely. In the entire history of the original Golden Dawn, there was not a single member - with the possible exception of Florence Farr - who awakened to Briah while a member of the Order. This doesn't mean nobody every could, but it does mean that it's not anything we should mark down as an expectation.

For instance it could take 3 years to get to Philosophus (while haveing had previous experiences in related stuff and maybe a good level in a science and an art ) and then 2 more years to D.L, then 3 more to Adepthod, then 5 to Major, 5 again to Exemptus...

This, of course, would vary by individual. It is not, however, anything basic to the time frames of the system.

In the G.D., the least time to get to Philosophus was 6 months. Several did this, but it wasn't the standard. It would then take another 7 months (13 months total) to get to 5=6 (Portal and 5=6 being given, at that point in time, almost concurrently). The Stella Matutina added another buffer, and the 13 month figure was the minimum to get to Portal, with another 9 months (22 months total) as the minimum to get to 5=6.

In the A.'.A.'., the minimum time to get to Philosophus is 22 months; 23 months total to get to Dominus Liminus; and 29 months total to get to 5=6 (remember, these are minimums rarely met).

The 5 years from 5=6 to 6=5 is IIRC a Waite innovation.

Also, notice in A.'.A.'. astral vision is still tested for D.L in the form of "rising on the planes".

Yes. That's a different level / practice, but relies on some of the same mechanism. It's the "vertical" transition corresponding to the Path of Samekh, which is the primary Path of the D.L. grade. It's one of the techniques that may contribute to opening Briah. (That's the basic point in D.L. in A.'.A.'.: Hitting the apex of Yetzirah, and opening the last veil to Briah.)

That can be seen as the actual "mastery of the astral plane" supposed to happen in Neophytus in the form of the prescribed test.

The Rising on the Planes test is not part of the Neophyte test at all.

[Hermes]

That can be seen as the actual "mastery of the astral plane" supposed to happen in Neophytus in the form of the prescribed test.

The Rising on the Planes test is not part of the Neophyte test at all.

What i mean is we could see 4=7's "rising on the planes" test as the "real" "mastery of the astral plane" test. In a sense where the actual mastery of the astral plane happens in 4=7, not in 1=10.

And elements are not only Assiah. Arent the four worls the most subtle expression of them for instance? Isnt IHVH as such briatic(?)?Also we work them in Yetzirah as much as in Assiah dont we?

So i dont see any reason my map woul be less logical than Crowley's. Only the Mather's one is illogical after 4=7 in my opinion because it should "escalate" as i suggest and no keep the same rythm and ritual system.

Arent modern GD-based systems more advanced than the original one anyway? I heard the old second order stuff is worked in the first now, and that theres a new second order... So maybe they 're doing something similar to what i suggest. Isnt TOT also GD based but works at higher intensity?

[Hermes]

And i do get Yetzirah in 5=6 can be good as a system, as masonry and many things can be, the only problem is as Crowley unveiled the "real" GD which is Briah in 5=6, any genuine GD system must follow this, otherwise called something else isnt it? My map respects this, it is only concerning how to get to dominus liminis that i suggest a different way. After it would be the same.

[Starry Soul]

And i do get Yetzirah in 5=6 can be good as a system, as masonry and many things can be, the only problem is as Crowley unveiled the "real" GD which is Briah in 5=6,

5=6 in A.'.A.'. is not G.'.D.'. anymore, its R.'.C.'..

any genuine GD system must follow this, otherwise called something else isnt it?

What is a genuine G.D. system? What is a G.D. system, for that matter?

My map respects this, it is only concerning how to get to dominus liminis that i suggest a different way.

There's no need to "respect" Tiphereth in Briah if you're going to have the lower Sephiroth in Assiah, wasting precious time and putting the future "Dominus Liminis" (if one could even call someone that in this case) in a situation where he is supposed to be about to attain, and yet isn't half ready for it. Saying he's facing Tiphereth (and he may well be, in Yetzirah!) won't make he progress faster — remember that, in A.'.A.'., the Grade is a recognition of the attainment (including the specific tasks), not the other way around, and each one is no small feat to pass through. The "Dominus Liminis" in your theoretical system would be at most the equivalent of a 2=9 A.'.A.'. and would still need to equilibrate himself regarding the elements and prepare himself quite extensively before attaining. That's the problem: in A.'.A.'. the Path of Samekh would be Yetzirah verging on Briah; in the old G.D. it would be Assiah verging on Yetzirah; and in your map you would have the aspirant working in Assiah, starting with Yetzirah and somehow Briah is supposed to appear for the next Grade without time or preparation — how does that work?

After it would be the same.

Another thing: why after? One thing at a time. The pathway to Adepthood should be the one most carefully mapped and layed down, since the aspirant doesn't have K&C to guide himself with because, well, that's what he's trying to achieve.

[Jim Eshelman]

The Rising on the Planes test is not part of the Neophyte test at all.

What i mean is we could see 4=7's "rising on the planes" test as the "real" "mastery of the astral plane" test. In a sense where the actual mastery of the astral plane happens in 4=7, not in 1=10.

Well, I supposed you could. But they're testing different things. The task in 1=10 is to effectively open and cross etc. the bridge from Assiah to Yetzirah. The task in Samekh is for someone who already has that one well in hand, and the assignment now becomes one of the core practices that bridges between Yetzirah and Briah. The natures of the practices are extremely different.

And elements are not only Assiah. Arent the four worls the most subtle expression of them for instance?

They're certainly a very subtle expression of YHVH. I do wonder whether we are being sloppy in calling them "the elements." Nonetheless, you're right that they are analogous to the elements.

Isnt IHVH as such briatic(?)?

As a Divine Name, it is Atziluthic. (I think I missed something here.)

Also we work them in Yetzirah as much as in Assiah dont we?

Very much so. Especially in Yetzirah of Malkuth (since, in a different sense, it is Malkuth that is distinctively the Sphere of the Elements).

So i dont see any reason my map woul be less logical than Crowley's.

Oh, I see. I didn't understand that you were trying to show that you're as big a magical hot-shot as the Magus of the Aeon. I thought you were seeking understanding of the system delivered. (I'll leave alone to that, then.)

Only the Mather's one is illogical after 4=7 in my opinion because it should "escalate" as i suggest and no keep the same rhythm and ritual system.

That's because you have no real experience of it. (Your posts make clear that you have not been working the system, but have been mixing and matching and making it up as you go along. That's fine. But don't challenge a system you haven't actually followed.)

You are also stuck on the idea that Netzach is Netzach is Netzach, and there's a single system that has to make this all make sense in a single way. That totally neglects the most basic doctrine of the Four Worlds, which is: The entire Tree exists in each of the Worlds. After that, it's a matter of how one wants to model it.

The classic GD formulae are part of a system that represent the First (or outer) Order in Assiah and the Second (or Inner) Order in Yetzirah (and, theoretically, beyond). That's valid its own terms, and need not be confused with any system that is modeled differently.

Arent modern GD-based systems more advanced than the original one anyway?

There is an enormous amount that has been learned in the intervening century-plus. Especially, this is in areas of human psychology, though that's not the whole of it. Also social modeling and new technology if group dynamics. And yes, some stuff that is now totally public is addressed earlier - for example, it would be silly to veil the color scales, even though they were never released until 5=6 historically (and were the real breakthrough secret of the Second Order in a practical way). Etc.

I heard the old second order stuff is worked in the first now, and that theres a new second order...

That would be a reasonable description of the A.'.A.'. system. That is, in A.'.A.'. nearly the entire old Second Order curriculum is in 1=10, to be followed by the old Second Order initiation formula on entering 2=9. But is A.'.A.'. what we're speaking about here? It seems it is not.

So maybe they 're doing something similar to what i suggest. Isnt TOT also GD based but works at higher intensity?

Higher intensity, yes; but not by importing things native to the Second Order into the First Order. One example (which I guess I'm at liberty to share): In T.'.O.'.T.'. you'll never see a Hexagram Ritual until Second Order. Why? Many reasons, but two big ones are: (1) It's inherently a solar ritual, and therefore needs to be placed consistent with other solar symbols. (2) The opening and closing parts of it are recapitulations of something that happens at a key moment in the 5° initiation, and it would loose a valuable linkage to teach or disclose that before someone had passed through the moment of being admitted into the Second Order.

T.'.O.'.T.'. also pushes further because the Second Order is developed much more deeply and fully. But the planes are modeled differently: It is the 8° that corresponds to the A.'.A.'. 5=6.

[Jim Eshelman]

And i do get Yetzirah in 5=6 can be good as a system, as masonry and many things can be, the only problem is as Crowley unveiled the "real" GD which is Briah in 5=6, any genuine GD system must follow this, otherwise called something else isnt it? My map respects this, it is only concerning how to get to dominus liminis that i suggest a different way. After it would be the same.

<sigh> No, not the same. (You are using "Dominus Liminis" and "Portal" interchangeably, even though they are separate titles used in separate Orders.) they aren't the same because the threshold is into Yetzirah in one system, and into Briah in the other.

Again, you are trying to make a single thing out of this. It's not "the real GD" system. It's a different one.

[Hermes]

Thanks Jim, very helpful

5=6 in A.'.A.'. is not G.'.D.'. anymore, its R.'.C.'..
.

That could sum up the point. Couldnt the map i suggest correspond to an order called R.'.C.'. which would be "between" G.'.D.'. and A.'.A.'....?

[Archaeus]

Thanks Jim, very helpful

5=6 in A.'.A.'. is not G.'.D.'. anymore, its R.'.C.'..
.

That could sum up the point. Couldnt the map i suggest correspond to an order called R.'.C.'. which would be "between" G.'.D.'. and A.'.A.'....?

Then why not just start your own order using the system that you propose?

[Hermes]

Thanks Jim, very helpful

5=6 in A.'.A.'. is not G.'.D.'. anymore, its R.'.C.'..
.

That could sum up the point. Couldnt the map i suggest correspond to an order called R.'.C.'. which would be "between" G.'.D.'. and A.'.A.'....?

Then why not just start your own order using the system that you propose?

We'll see what HGA says when i'll be an adept...

[Starry Soul]

We'll see what HGA says when i'll be an adept...

That's actually a really good, sound idea. There's no point in a non-Adept engaging in fancy speculation about some new Order. (The blind leading the blind et al.)

[Archaeus]

We'll see what HGA says when i'll be an adept...

That's actually a really good, sound idea. There's no point in a non-Adept engaging in fancy speculation about some new Order. (The blind leading the blind et al.)

Yup; speculation is all very interesting and certainly has a place, but there is little point in going through a system if you keep asking if it is in fact the right system, that is like continually pulling the rug out from under your own feet.

The way I see it is that the old GD system up to portal is covered in AA 1=10, so advancing to 2=9 is like being a GD 5=6, so basically an AA 2=9 is roughly equivalent to a ZAM according to GD standards (because in GD the grades prior to 5=6 are elemental and so are covered in 1=10 AA).

[Starry Soul]

Exactly.