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Frater Horus wrote:I feel there is only one (real)G.'.D.'., one (real)4=7, and so on.
Starry Soul wrote:I don't get what you mean by "one real G.D.," "one real 4=7," nor why you would mix two things that are measured differently into a third unrelated thing.
Frater Horus wrote:Starry Soul wrote:I don't get what you mean by "one real G.D.," "one real 4=7," nor why you would mix two things that are measured differently into a third unrelated thing.
The "real" G.'.D.'. is what Crowley tried to emulate at his best with his A.'.A.'. system(concerning grades up to Dominus Liminis). That's it. It is the real and actual attainment on the tree of life regardless of any dogma(except kabbalah).
From this i imply Crowley did right associating Tiphareth with Briah but not necessarly concerning Yesod with Yetzirah, at least in such a system where we use a "dominus liminis" grade.
Frater Horus wrote:From this i imply Crowley did right associating Tiphareth with Briah but not necessarly concerning Yesod with Yetzirah, at least in such a system where we use a "dominus liminis" grade.
Jim Eshelman wrote:Frater Horus wrote:I feel there is only one (real)G.'.D.'., one (real)4=7, and so on.
I see why it might be important to you to adopt this point of view. However, I don't see how you can sustain this point of view with neglecting or minimalizing certain facts.
Both the G.D. system and the A.'.A.'. system have a grade called Philosophus, bearing the designation 4=7, which mark a specific phase in each of the respective systems, but which are not equal to each other. (A Philosphus of G.D. is not even doing the work of an A.'.A.'. 1=10.)
Yes, you can look back on the G.D. 4=7 and understand something deeper about it from the perspective of an A.'.A.'. 4=7; but that isn't the point of view of someone actually moving up through the G.D. 4=7. It's more like a G.D. 7=4 looking back, with deeper understanding, on their 4=7.
Jim Eshelman wrote:Frater Horus wrote:Starry Soul wrote:I don't get what you mean by "one real G.D.," "one real 4=7," nor why you would mix two things that are measured differently into a third unrelated thing.
The "real" G.'.D.'. is what Crowley tried to emulate at his best with his A.'.A.'. system(concerning grades up to Dominus Liminis). That's it. It is the real and actual attainment on the tree of life regardless of any dogma(except kabbalah).
Well, OK, then you are simply dismissing the other Order altogether. To me that seems narrow.
It was never intended to be what the A.'.A.'. is. It's First Order is entirely in Assiah. (Drilling Yetzirah, preparing for Yetzirah, but not yet awake and functioning in Yetzirah.) This contrasts sharply with A.'.A.'..From this i imply Crowley did right associating Tiphareth with Briah but not necessarly concerning Yesod with Yetzirah, at least in such a system where we use a "dominus liminis" grade.
If you are speaking of A.'.A.'., the task of the Neophyte ensures - absolutely guarantees - that the 2=9 is awake and functioning in Yetzirah - since the actual task to get there is to be awake and functioning in Yetzirah.
Starry Soul wrote:Frater Horus wrote:From this i imply Crowley did right associating Tiphareth with Briah but not necessarly concerning Yesod with Yetzirah, at least in such a system where we use a "dominus liminis" grade.
The point is: why not? As in, why do you think so?
Frater Horus wrote:Because it feels more natural and logic having the four base sephiroth as a gradual exposure to Yetzirah and then Dominus Liminis as the full activation.
Frater Horus wrote:I think the problem is the respective ways the four worlds are put into one tree...
Crowley got the picture more accurate but it cant be as accurate as one's own spontaneous ake up, that's what i mean.
Starry Soul wrote:Frater Horus wrote:Because it feels more natural and logic having the four base sephiroth as a gradual exposure to Yetzirah and then Dominus Liminis as the full activation.
That mapping would be all off. Dominus Liminis in A.'.A.'. activates Briah. If not, you'd have to do all the Yetziratic work plus awakening of Briah in a single Grade that isn't even Sephirah-based! If you wished to extend the Yetziratic work into more Grades, you'd just have a version of the original G.D.
What's the point of having four Grades in Assiah with almost no work and then a pseudo-Grade with ALL the work before Knowledge and Conversation? It doesn't seem natural and logic at all. Malkuth is the sphere of the elements, just as the four lower Sephiroth stand for the elements; you don't need four full Grades in Assiah to get exposed to Yetzirah and you don't need to waste three powerful symbols with stand-in landmarks. (IMO)
Jim Eshelman wrote:Frater Horus wrote:I think the problem is the respective ways the four worlds are put into one tree...
Crowley got the picture more accurate but it cant be as accurate as one's own spontaneous ake up, that's what i mean.
I absolutely agree that this is the correct model for A.'.A.'..
I disagree that there is only a single way to do it. The entire Tree exists in all four worlds - not some sephiroth only in one world, and others in another. You can describe the entire Tree in just one world - all in Atziluth, for example, or (as I think SRIA would fit) all in Assiah. Or you can draw the dividing lines in different places. How you draw them determines the nature of the particular system. Different maps can be followed, and they describe different terrains.
One can be a high school sophomore and someone else (or the same person at a different time) can be a college sophomore. The fact that both frameworks have the same four names for the same four stages (freshman, sophomore, junior, senior) doesn't mean that they are identical; nor does it mean that one is better than the other. (Nor does either one of those address a given student's aptitude for particular subjects or their ability to read.)
Frater Horus wrote:So by the time you're say a Practicus, even though supposed in Assiah, there are good chances Yetzirah is activated to a good extent.
Briah to some extent also.
For instance it could take 3 years to get to Philosophus (while haveing had previous experiences in related stuff and maybe a good level in a science and an art ) and then 2 more years to D.L, then 3 more to Adepthod, then 5 to Major, 5 again to Exemptus...
Also, notice in A.'.A.'. astral vision is still tested for D.L in the form of "rising on the planes".
That can be seen as the actual "mastery of the astral plane" supposed to happen in Neophytus in the form of the prescribed test.
Jim Eshelman wrote:That can be seen as the actual "mastery of the astral plane" supposed to happen in Neophytus in the form of the prescribed test.
The Rising on the Planes test is not part of the Neophyte test at all.
Frater Horus wrote:And i do get Yetzirah in 5=6 can be good as a system, as masonry and many things can be, the only problem is as Crowley unveiled the "real" GD which is Briah in 5=6,
any genuine GD system must follow this, otherwise called something else isnt it?
My map respects this, it is only concerning how to get to dominus liminis that i suggest a different way.
After it would be the same.
Frater Horus wrote:Jim Eshelman wrote:The Rising on the Planes test is not part of the Neophyte test at all.
What i mean is we could see 4=7's "rising on the planes" test as the "real" "mastery of the astral plane" test. In a sense where the actual mastery of the astral plane happens in 4=7, not in 1=10.
And elements are not only Assiah. Arent the four worls the most subtle expression of them for instance?
Isnt IHVH as such briatic(?)?
Also we work them in Yetzirah as much as in Assiah dont we?
So i dont see any reason my map woul be less logical than Crowley's.
Only the Mather's one is illogical after 4=7 in my opinion because it should "escalate" as i suggest and no keep the same rhythm and ritual system.
Arent modern GD-based systems more advanced than the original one anyway?
I heard the old second order stuff is worked in the first now, and that theres a new second order...
So maybe they 're doing something similar to what i suggest. Isnt TOT also GD based but works at higher intensity?
Frater Horus wrote:And i do get Yetzirah in 5=6 can be good as a system, as masonry and many things can be, the only problem is as Crowley unveiled the "real" GD which is Briah in 5=6, any genuine GD system must follow this, otherwise called something else isnt it? My map respects this, it is only concerning how to get to dominus liminis that i suggest a different way. After it would be the same.
Starry Soul wrote:5=6 in A.'.A.'. is not G.'.D.'. anymore, its R.'.C.'..
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Frater Horus wrote:Thanks Jim, very helpful
Starry Soul wrote:5=6 in A.'.A.'. is not G.'.D.'. anymore, its R.'.C.'..
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That could sum up the point. Couldnt the map i suggest correspond to an order called R.'.C.'. which would be "between" G.'.D.'. and A.'.A.'....?
Archaeus wrote:Frater Horus wrote:Thanks Jim, very helpful
Starry Soul wrote:5=6 in A.'.A.'. is not G.'.D.'. anymore, its R.'.C.'..
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That could sum up the point. Couldnt the map i suggest correspond to an order called R.'.C.'. which would be "between" G.'.D.'. and A.'.A.'....?
Then why not just start your own order using the system that you propose?
Frater Horus wrote:We'll see what HGA says when i'll be an adept...
Starry Soul wrote:Frater Horus wrote:We'll see what HGA says when i'll be an adept...
That's actually a really good, sound idea. There's no point in a non-Adept engaging in fancy speculation about some new Order. (The blind leading the blind et al.)
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